Episode 16 - How to reverse engineer online dating
How to Reverse Engineer Online dating
Christine Baumgartner, founder of The Perfect Catch, joins me this week to explore how online daters can dramatically improve their chances of finding that ideal romantic partner by focusing first on themselves, then on the match they are hoping to find. I call it reverse engineering online dating.
Christine brings her profound expertise and practical wisdom to the conversation, helping us shatter common myths about online dating and showing us how to turn our search for love into a journey of self-discovery.
This episode takes a compassionate look at the daunting world of dating for widowed men. We unmask the unique insecurities that come with seeking love after loss and deliver some essential tips for navigating the dating world later in life. We also tackle the disparity in how men and women experience widowhood, adding a fresh layer of understanding to the conversation. This chat is brimming with motivation to abandon old beliefs and embrace new dating goals.
But that's not all. We also delve into the critical role of honesty, humor, and compatibility in relationships, with a special emphasis on the importance of self-confidence in dating. Learn how to tackle the fear of rejection head-on, and how to create an honest depiction of who you are and what you want in a relationship. With Christine's help, we also explore the importance of liking your partner beyond mere chemistry and how to foster meaningful conversations about differences.
This week’s Guest Co-Host
Christine Baumgartner
As a coach...
I’ve helped hundreds of people successfully through their dating and relationship processes. I enjoy listening carefully to who you are, and then using that knowledge to help you explore your dating and relationship needs.
I believe your answers are already there – they lie within you. My passion is to help you find your own unique path as you seek that special someone.
I’m very committed to helping you clearly define the core wants and needs you desire from a partner. I can help you learn valuable skills for moving past personal road blocks. As you apply these truths, you learn more about yourself, and you’ll be able to attract the love you want and deserve.
Online dating...
My coaching is deeply influenced by my own period of online dating. Not only did I become an expert at online dating back then, I figured out how to have fun while doing it. And it led me to meet and marry my late husband.
Finding your perfect catch...
Before starting up her own coaching business, Christine worked as a relationship coach for John Gray (author of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus). During this time, she became a top coach and helped hundreds of individuals and couples successfully through their dating and relationships.
Widowhood...
I was already an experienced dating and relationship coach when my husband died six years ago. I had no idea back then how my own path through grief, confusion, and reconnection would add such depth to my coaching practice.
As a widow, I have a new level of understanding about dating after loss. Widows (and widowers) tell me "all the dating rules have changed". They tell me they wish they could skip the dating part and just find a wonderful relationship. And I know what they mean.
The good news is - my clients and I have discovered there are many safe and proactive ways to re-enter the dating world. And I'm here to tell you, they really do work!
Transcript:
Episode 16 - How to Reverse Engineer Online Dating
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[00:00:40] Hoyt: What of your approach to online dating is actually sabotaging your chances of success. We often immediately set about building out our filters to limit prospective partner matches. To only those that meet our exact strict criteria. They must have a degree. They must be [00:01:00] five, 10 or taller. They must be between 52 and 56 years old. Can't be a Trumper and on and on and on. Now, certainly it is important to define your absolute must haves and your red lines. For example, if you're a wine connoisseur, you probably want to rule out teetotallers. But my guest co-host this week. Christine Baumgardner says that most people take this way too far and it's hindering their success in online dating. She encourages people to focus on themselves first. With a set of tools and exercises designed to make you the perfect catch. For the exact kind of man or woman, you're hoping to find. In fact. The name of her company is just that the perfect catch. Christine is a dating and relationship coach.
[00:01:53] And she's also a life coach. Her approach is unique and powerful.
[00:01:58] My conversation with her [00:02:00] was packed with insight, actionable advice. And charm. I found her so delightful that I did not want this conversation to end. So without further ado. I bring you my conversation with Christine Baumgardner Christine. Thanks for joining us on behind the swipe. . .
[00:02:19] Christine: Thank you so much, Hoyt. It's really a thrill to be with you.
[00:02:22] Hoyt: let's dig straight into this topic today, because there's a lot of meat here that I want to cover. So I think people in general who are about to go on an online dating site have. One standard approach, and that is, I'm going to put all of these checkboxes together and I am going to say I want a partner that's X or Y or Z, and they build this idealized human being. in their minds and in their profile requirements. And all of that work that they do when they put themselves out there is really outward focused. [00:03:00] They're looking at, okay, how do I find somebody that really matches that? Oh, I'm going to throw this one back. He, you know, he didn't make it on the, on the third most important thing that I, that I've got.
[00:03:10] And you take a little bit of a different approach with your clients, which is. To say, okay, that's important, but let's look at the other side of this. Let's look at how you are showing up in this, and whether you are attractive. with your characteristics to that idealized person. Did I catch any of that right?
[00:03:34] Christine: Yes, I think it's really important because the way I named my company The Perfect Catch is that you learn how to be the perfect catch and then you will attract the perfect catch. So figuring out who you really are and what you really need and want is the way that I have my clients fill out the list of the characteristics that they want.
[00:03:55] from the other person that they're dating and ultimately hopefully going to have a forever [00:04:00] relationship with. And my clients always have a list, usually when they come to me, and the way that they do their list with me tends to be really different and way more effective.
[00:04:11] Hoyt: in the first half of this show, I really want to talk about how people are maybe not getting this right. And then the second half of the show, I'd really like to dig into your process here. and talk about the exercises that you take people through, the coaching that you provide during that process of dating that kind of helps them keep on track and helps them really learn more about themselves in the entire process.
[00:04:39] Christine: Well, how can you change something and make it better if you don't already know what that something is ? You realize it, you put it in the front of your brain, you become really conscious of it. One of the things that I tell people is, Let's pretend that you're in California and you want to drive to New York, but you think it's weird to be in [00:05:00] California.
[00:05:00] And so you're going to pretend that you're in Florida. So now when you put in your GPS from Florida to go to New York, you're not going to end up in New York. You're probably going to end up in the ocean or you're going to end up in Canada, but you're not going to end up where you were. So figuring out who you are and where you are really, and Often we don't want to look at what didn't really work before.
[00:05:22] We just go, this is what I want different, but we don't look at what didn't work before. We just want something different. So we keep dating often the same people over and over, or having the same unpleasant thing happen, or we don't meet anybody, or we're afraid to even start because we've heard all the horrible stories.
[00:05:42] So when you, keep meeting the same person over and over again, which is what I did personally before I met my late husband. It took me a while to finally go, well, maybe it has a little bit to do with me . So, if you have hurts or you've had bad experiences, even [00:06:00] just you're growing up and you didn't see good relationships or you haven't had good relationships with friends or coworkers as well as romantic, that's the way that you're approaching your relationships now and that can not have a good result.
[00:06:15] And one of the things I found out when I was doing this more conscious way of dating, you don't want to date anybody with baggage. And I said, well, then they're going to be two, because everybody's got baggage. And really looking at what your baggage is doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you somebody who wants to grow.
[00:06:38] So when I looked at my baggage, because I'm a really visual person, I discovered I had this U Haul truck following me around that had the stuff in it from a house full of family of five people. And that's a lot to be dragging around, period. And certainly a lot to be putting on somebody else. So, figuring out how to go through my personal baggage and, I say, get it down to the size of a bag that would [00:07:00] fit in an overhead bin on an airplane is advisable.
[00:07:03] So,
[00:07:04] Hoyt: it. That's a great analogy.
[00:07:05] Christine: thanks. It's one of the ways we keep stumbling along when we go, why is the wrong person showing up and there's only these kind of people, there's only... Bad men. There's only bad women. Nobody wants to make a commitment. They all are mean. They're all narcissists. That's the catch word. They all only want sex.
[00:07:26] They only want my money. Yeah, there's people out there. Online dating, next to you at the grocery counter. They're everywhere, but it's really a small percentage. But if that's all you're seeing, and I'm telling you it's a small percentage, then maybe it's like, Oh, maybe it's me. Maybe it's what I think I need.
[00:07:47] Maybe it's what I feel like. Attraction. It's really wild what I personally discovered because I wasn't a coach then, I just was somebody dating to figure out for myself and then figure out how to teach other people [00:08:00] because we are uneducated. We're smart people, but anything you've learned how to do in your life, drive your car, use your phone, do your job.
[00:08:10] You went to school, you had somebody teach you and people just think, just believe that they should just know how to date and We're not very good at it for a lot of these reasons that I'm stating.
[00:08:22] Hoyt: so what do people mostly get wrong in your experience? What are the misconceptions that somebody that, oh, maybe they were divorced two years ago and now they're maybe ready to go meet somebody. What are the general misconceptions that you see out there with prospective online
[00:08:43] Christine: That chemistry is enough. It's not. Because what will happen is, chemistry has us put on rose colored glasses and go into a hormone fog. And you cannot see red flags if you put on rose colored glasses. It's a physical impossibility. [00:09:00] So we ignore things that are warnings. We won't ask the hard questions. We don't even know the questions to ask.
[00:09:07] We go, wow, we both like Chinese food and we like Mel Brooks movies. We should think about it for future relationship without thinking about what are the other really important things to you. Because so many of the things that come up that are problems, they didn't ask later. They did the problems later.
[00:09:27] They didn't ask. They didn't. even know to ask, they were afraid to ask, they've gotten in so far they're afraid the other person's going to leave if they ask. And I think that that's the biggest thing , not knowing what you really need and want, and then not finding out if the other person can do that. And it doesn't make them a bad person if they can't, it just makes them maybe not right for you.
[00:09:49] But if we don't ask, how will we know if they can meet us somewhere in the middle ? And how will we know if they can't? So, so much of what I see [00:10:00] is You're not clear about what you want. And if you're not clear about what you want, then you'll settle. And nobody should settle when it's their heart. So I think that that's a lot of the mistakes.
[00:10:13] And I think that they take dating so seriously in the beginning. The very first meeting, I'm going to meet my future person. Say, no. I have lots of advice about the first meeting. Or, do you know, he... Only talked about himself and he didn't ask me about him at all. But then the poor guy goes, all she did was ask me questions and I didn't learn anything about her.
[00:10:41] Lots of people won't go on a second date because this very normal thing that men and women do that they don't know how to do differently until I teach them happens. And they're like, well, I'm over this. And it's so unfair. They also think, do I need to figure [00:11:00] out how different I'm going to be so that they'll like me?
[00:11:03] Rather
[00:11:04] Hoyt: that's very interesting, right?
[00:11:06] Christine: being yourself, be yourself. But no , you know, I want to wear the outfit that's going to impress them. I want to show that I'm really educated about something that I don't really care about, or I'm going to be intimidated by their education or it's wild. This, the conversations we have in our head about the other person that never includes them.
[00:11:28] How sad is that?
[00:11:30] Hoyt: Indeed.
[00:11:31] Christine: All the time, even in marriages that happens, but it certainly happens on the first couple of dates.
[00:11:36] Hoyt: So, Christine, one of the things that, I think I've heard you talk about is being clear upfront about why it is that you're wanting to date. And there could be a number of legitimate reasons for that. Not everybody is looking for marriage or a permanent, relationship. And people [00:12:00] move through different stages with dating, right?
[00:12:03] You might be dating for Just the opportunity to go out on the town and have fun. Perfectly legitimate. You might be dating primarily for a sexual partner. Perfectly legitimate. But if you don't understand really what you're, you know, when you were just talking a moment ago, it's like, uh, I don't remember who it was that said, well, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there, right?
[00:12:30] And that's how too many people I think approach. Dating.
[00:12:34] Christine: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think most people approach dating without a roadmap. Without any thought about, well, where do I want to end up? They all say, I'm going to know when I get there. I'm going to know them when I meet them. And I think those are valid statements. They need a lot before them, though. You can't just go on those two [00:13:00] things.
[00:13:00] You have to have, well, how will you know if you don't know what it is? If you figured out what it is ahead of time, you will definitely know when you meet that person. You'll definitely know when you get there. And it's, what you said is so important because we don't... Make a plan. We make lots of other plans in our lives about what it is we really need and want
[00:13:27] Hoyt: mean, you make a plan when you go to the grocery store, right?
[00:13:30] Christine: Yes. And then you might see something that, wow, I never thought about that. That's an interesting trait that person has. If I put it back in dating or, wow, I never thought about that. No, I don't want that at all. And to speak at, being really clear about what you need and want. So many women will comment about, well,
[00:13:48] there's way more women in our age group of over 50 than men , which is true because men sadly die sooner. And what's really interesting is there's been a couple of articles in big newspapers lately about [00:14:00] this huge contingent of women over 50. They don't want a permanent relationship. They don't want a commitment.
[00:14:08] They're happy to see maybe one guy on the weekends, go to the movies, go to dinner, maybe go away for the weekend, maybe have sex. They don't want committed. And I will tell you out loud, cause I talk to men all day long, every day, half my clients are men. Most men over 50 want a relationship with one woman where they see each other really regularly.
[00:14:32] So yes, there still are more single women than men available that want relationships, but the odds are so much closer than they've ever been. Because of this pocket of women that, for a variety of reasons, I would be happy to tell you say no thank you to this kind of man, of which there are lots. So if women would believe this, they would stop feeling so negative and [00:15:00] about themselves that there aren't gonna be enough men and be more forthcoming about, well, I want this.
[00:15:07] I understand there's lots of men that want this if you're a woman that wants a relationship. And I think it's important to get the word out there.
[00:15:15] Hoyt: that's a great segue because I had an opportunity this week to have a chat with an older gentleman that I'll call Keith. well, rather than me tell her story, let's listen in on, what Keith had to say.
[00:15:29] Christine: Okay.
[00:15:29] Allen: I was married for 40 years and it was, like perfect. I had all my needs were met all the time. she was just a loving person, a very bird, but she got cancer and she passed away in 2016, she was the last bit of support, so, so, uh, You know, it was, uh, [00:16:00] so I waited, uh, I waited about, oh, I guess about a year or so.
[00:16:06] Hoyt: I didn't like being alone, I needed, affection. I needed to be intimate with somebody, not necessarily physically,
[00:16:14] Have companionship.
[00:16:15] exactly. And, after having that for all those years. you get pretty addicted to it. maybe if I would have been a bachelor all my life, maybe I would think differently. I decided that, I really am earnestly looking for somebody to spend my life with
[00:16:34] and share experiences with.
[00:16:36] I felt that I was ill prepared I had pretty much things my way for so long and it was important to me that at this stage of my life to give it the best shot I could, with some more information. I didn't have enough information really to make good choices
[00:16:56] because I didn't have to,
[00:16:58] I just didn't feel I, on [00:17:00] my own, I had enough experience and knowledge to go about it, successfully
[00:17:06] So, Christine, full disclosure here, Keith became, at that point in time, a client of yours. And that's, I think there are so many parts of that story that people can relate to. Clearly, Keith is wired. to be partnered. that's what makes him comfortable as a person. And many of us are. So he's sort of outside of that zone of women that you just talked about, which said, nope, I'm going to keep my life just the way it is and add a little spice when I need it, right?
[00:17:43] But, but that's not his experience. But what was interesting here, because You know, he's, he's not a young man, and he was curious enough before he said, okay, well, how do I do this, [00:18:00] that he went on the internet and did a lot of research, listened to people, read blog posts, and, and really did the research.
[00:18:09] Which is where he came across you, So he took a very different approach, I think, than most people take. He clearly, he didn't have a friend that had already been down that road that could say, Hey Keith, come over here and I'll show you how to do this. It's. it's a process, but you can do it.
[00:18:27] So he really was, unusually inclined to move in that direction. But he also recognized that he had some weaknesses. when he talked about being alone, uh, the piece that you didn't hear in that interview was that He and his wife lost their only child, so he truly was alone.
[00:18:51] So, a lot of challenges, to deal with, for him. But how common do you see this kind of a scenario [00:19:00] where someone is just coming at the opportunity to Meet other people and probably do the kind of things that he did which is hey I you know, I went to singles group at this at the church group and and boy the pickings were slim, right?
[00:19:16] So And and so like with with the in the second half of the show, we'll talk about the process here. But how common are situations like this.
[00:19:29] Christine: Especially with widowed men, because I coached for about four years until my husband died as a divorced person. So, all my clients, both men and women, were divorced. I knew what it was like to go through a divorce. And what I found becoming widowed, and having widowed people now become clients, because I wouldn't have had any understanding about it before, but it's one of those things that once you [00:20:00] experience it,
[00:20:03] widowed men especially. liked being married. Often with divorce, one or both persons is really mad at the other person. That's why you got divorced, since you had been in love and now you're not anymore, for whatever reason. Most of the time, not always. A widowed person is still very in love with who they were married to and they would have been still married to them if they hadn't died.
[00:20:30] So they have a very good feeling about being married. They still feel connected as a married person. They feel like their right arm is gone because that they be, it's like you were these two people, but you became this third. thing, the relationship together and you don't lose your independence, but you're nurturing and being a part of this third thing called a relationship.
[00:20:51] And men tend to, widowed men, tend to be ready and willing [00:21:00] and able to get into another relationship, a committed relationship, whether they get married or not, sooner. Their hearts are still very open. They have really not hardly anything negative about being married, even if they were the caregiver for a lot of years for their wife. It doesn't affect them often in the same way it does the women, which is what's caused this big contingency of women that say, no, no, thank you anymore. So it's very common. And then, If they go too early, which I used to say, I think people just figure it out on their own. And now I'm think it's a year. If people ask, I've never have a problem giving my opinion.
[00:21:45] I think a year is really best. They kind of stumble around because they haven't dated since they were teenagers. they've been with one person for 40 years and they have the same insecurities women are all about. Oh my God, my body doesn't look well. They think the same [00:22:00] thing and maybe their body doesn't work the same way. You had like an unspoken second language with somebody after 40 years and how do you talk to somebody else who isn't going to have that same and could you ever develop it again only different and are there things that you would be fine with them being different from your late is that feel disloyal?
[00:22:22] Does having sex feel disloyal? There's so many things that widowed people in general, and speaking about widowed men , go through that people don't talk about. It's kind of like, Ooh. So I talk about them with it and go through normal. Yeah. Normal. Oh yeah. That's really normal. And let's process it so that you won't have it get in your way of your next relationship.
[00:22:43] And they have no idea where to go. Often the woman of the relationship was the social person, gathered their friends together. They don't, they often don't know how to cook or, and I'm not saying anything negative, I... have dinner with a lot of widowed [00:23:00] people every month. And all these men are like, Oh my God, I had to learn how to cook and do, because she didn't want me to.
[00:23:05] She liked doing it. I did this, she did that. So they're feeling lost. They're feeling so heartbroken. And so I'm so pleased if they'll come to me sooner than later when they haven't had a couple of really heartbreaks or been taken advantage of by a scammer because they're out there too. So it's very common for men to to seek out experts when they don't know the answer to something, period.
[00:23:35] So I found that men are very open to getting dating advice when they figure out, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. And Oh, and they, you know, what's really charming about men . You really like being good at stuff, especially if you're going to do it in front of a lady that you think is really cute. So you come to me and have me teach you how to be good at it before you sit in front of a lady that's cute.
[00:23:55] I love that about you. You want to learn in secret and then go out and [00:24:00] look professional at it, don't you think?
[00:24:03] Hoyt: Christine, help me, uh, contrast that with what a widowed woman's experience is.
[00:24:09] Christine: So there, there are certainly lots of widowed women who feel we're madly in love with their husband, would love to be in a loving, caring, you know, ongoing relationship with them. What I find for that pocket of women I was talking about, they, what they'll say is, I need to find myself again. I lost myself.
[00:24:32] I gave away too much of myself. And, very sympathetic when they come to me and say that. And then I have the come to Jesus talk about whose choice was that? ?Because often I am a reformed one of those. We think nobody can do it as good as us. We want to be in charge. We're horrible at asking for help. I shouldn't have to ask for help.
[00:24:58] They should be reading my [00:25:00] mind. They should see how hard this is. They should see how much work I'm doing. They should just know if they loved me enough. They would just know why I'm mad, what I need, and I'm telling you ladies, here and everywhere I talk, men do not have that superpower of reading our minds.
[00:25:18] Women, we can read each other's minds pretty well, but we'll still turn down help because we have somewhere sold a bill of goods of if I have to ask, it doesn't mean as much. They don't really want to. I want them to really want to. So there's this fun movie called The Breakup with Jennifer Aniston, and I never can remember his name.
[00:25:40] Um, Where she's all mad that she threw this big party at their apartment And she's in the kitchen banging around with the dishes And he's playing a video game on the TV and she comes out and she's so angry He goes what she goes. I mean they're doing the dishes all by myself. He goes. Yeah, [00:26:00] you need to come help And he goes, okay She says and I want you to want to do the dishes and he stops and he looks he goes I am never going to want to do the dishes.
[00:26:09] It's just not me, but if it would make you happy, I would happily do the dishes. And so I tell women, men's highest priority is to make us happy. So when you speak, men have taught me. Like Twitter, short sentences that get to the point, it would make me so happy if you blah blah. They will do it in a heartbeat, especially if you say thank you and you're going to be in a good mood after.
[00:26:34] So we overdo, we are overwhelmed, we're doing too, we do, we do too much and we're damaging our adrenal glands, we're exhausted all the times. Something men don't know is women brag about how long we can wait to pee. We can wait hours, cause there's all these other things that take priority over our physical health.
[00:26:57] Men would never wait to pee. You'd be like, [00:27:00] why? Why are you waiting? So, my job, one of my big jobs, is to keep expressing to women how important it is to put yourself first, like the oxygen mask on the airplane, and please ask for help. Please delegate. Because, when I have these women who say, Alright, I'm sick of being alone.
[00:27:22] I really don't think I want to give up my independence, again. But I've heard you're really good and talk to me about dating. I started out with we're not gonna talk about dating We're gonna talk about You're going to get massages. You're going to take baths. You're going to let somebody else load your dishwasher and not complain.
[00:27:39] You're going to go take a bath while they load your dishwasher. And they're tortured at first, but then they're like, oh, so do you have a little more energy? Do you feel a little more cared about? Do you feel more loving and caring about the people that come and help? It's like, yeah, I said, see, so I am offering a fix.
[00:27:55] Sorry. I'm not supposed to do that yet. But, but part of what I get frustrated about is [00:28:00] we. Shoot ourselves in the foot. I know there are women that never want to have another relationship. I honor that. But they're making the decision because they don't feel a need to have somebody. But the ones who are doing it because I give up my independence, they take over my life, they're only looking for a nurse and a purse.
[00:28:22] They're wrong. And I just want to, if you're going to still make the decision not, I want you to make it with all the information available. Because what you're making the decision on is so limited. And it's limiting your life. so limiting that you think you have to do every single thing for yourself and the entire world or it'll stop spinning.
[00:28:46] I was one of those. Ahmed So reformed one of those people. And I understand where they come from. So yeah, it's really hard because they're running their selves down [00:29:00] by running their lives this way. That pocket of women. I'm sure you've met a few.
[00:29:04] Hoyt: oh, just, just a few, just a few. So that's some great advice, Christine. It's probably a good time for us to take a break here. and in the second half of the show I want to see if we can reverse engineer this whole successful dating process
[00:29:20] And we'll hear again from Keith and some of his growth in the second half of the show. So we'll be right back
[00:29:28] recently I spent some time at the Podcast Movement Conference in Denver, Colorado. And there I had the opportunity to meet a ton of great podcasters. And I wanted to take the opportunity here to share a few of their stories. So today I'm joined by Hake Yates.
[00:29:45] Hakey has a podcast called Pursue Your Spark, and I just find it fascinating and I've asked Hakey to join us today. Hakey, you're almost 200 episodes into your podcast. Tell us about Pursue Your Spark.[00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Heiki: Oh my God. I love pursue your spark. And it was a labor of love but it just seems to resonate with so many women in midlife and I help them move more, eat better and have more energy daily. But most importantly, To let go of old beliefs, the old beliefs that hold us back to reach the dreams we want to reach and the goals we've set for ourselves.
[00:30:22] Hoyt: Well, hi key. I find your podcast very inspiring and I know our listeners will too.
[00:30:28] Heiki: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you're inviting me here to share with your listeners what I have to offer to help all these women in midlife get unstuck. It's such an exciting time in our life. Can't
[00:30:40] Hoyt: out Pursue Your Spark wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:30:46] I am back here with Christine Baumgartner. her company is The Perfect Catch. Christine is a dating coach, a relationship coach. and a life coach. And if you caught the first half of this show, you know how [00:31:00] infectious her personality is. I just love being here with you.
[00:31:03] Christine: Thank you. You too. Your wife is so lucky to get to live with you all the time.
[00:31:10] Hoyt: And she tells me that, so I really feel appreciated, So in this half of the show, what I really wanted to do is to go back to one of the first things that we talked about which is that maybe people have this whole process of online dating kind of backwards in their minds That they're unprepared and they jump in because they're just looking for that Perfect person.
[00:31:35] and they're only focused on that other person and not how they interact with that. So, I want to kind of take that apart, but before we do that, I thought we should hear from Keith again, because once he started working with you, I thought there were some really fascinating things that he was talking about.
[00:31:54] So, let's listen to Keith again.
[00:31:56] Allen: I was pretty low on self esteem, Christine. [00:32:00] helped me, build myself back up a little bit. Because I really felt like after this failed dating experiences I had, I wasn't too sure about myself.
[00:32:10] Hoyt: I mean, first of all, confidence in a man of any age is an attractive quality to women,
[00:32:15] Allen: I think so. I actually, I know so. she helped me, overcome that, fear. I don't know if all men have this, but there's this fear of rejection, and it. Hey, if somebody doesn't, like you, it's not your problem.
[00:32:34] It's their problem. So, she just helped me not to take anything personally.
[00:32:40] Hoyt: And so part of that process for you was regaining that self confidence and self esteem.I'm guessing, Keith, that that helped you as you went back out. into this Match. com world
[00:32:57] Allen: right.
[00:32:58] Hoyt: how many dates do you [00:33:00] think you had before you met this woman that you've been with for five years
[00:33:03] Allen: um, not that many. Um, When you're my age, they're just pretty, pretty slim pickings out there and, a lot of the women that I was interested in, or I thought I was interested in, weren't interested in me.
[00:33:20] So, I did not have many. I would say, boy, there were probably about five or six women, maybe, at the most.
[00:33:29] Hoyt: Keith based on what you've learned from christine And what you've been through in the last several years what kind of advice would you give to other men in your similar situation
[00:33:42] Allen: make sure you know what you want in a person. make sure you know what is really important and put that numero uno, on your list. And whoever you encounter, if they don't [00:34:00] match with your number one or number two, most important items on your list.
[00:34:06] Then move on, because you're wasting your time and their time.
[00:34:12] I had a list that Christine and I worked on of, must haves and, yeah. So I went by that. That's what I, that's what I would tell someone.
[00:34:22] don't bullshit yourself, don't lie to yourself and make something up because they'll find you out.
[00:34:29] Hoyt: Yeah.
[00:34:31] Allen: Then you'll regret it and you'll waste their time and you'll waste your time.
[00:34:36] Hoyt: Christine, it sounded like he came a long way during that process. He was talking about a lack of self confidence. I didn't pick up any of that in Keith's voice. when I interviewed him.
[00:34:49] Christine: And as I said, men, really, it's a core value to you to be good at stuff. I mean, you go to a [00:35:00] coach to learn how to golf before you go play golf with three other people. You go to a business coach before you are going to give a presentation at work. It's a charming quality of men. I admire that. So that's what I do for men, especially if you're not feeling confident in the dating world.
[00:35:21] Self confidence for both men and women is very attractive and very sexy. And so I help both men and women increase their self confidence because there's a lot of reasons for us to feel badly about ourselves, we think, and often it's just a false belief that's appearing real. And so if I can help you get past that, you're going to have much more success in your dating and in your life in general, if you can own There's some really great parts of me.
[00:35:52] Nobody's perfect and you always have more to learn. There's a lot of really great things about you. And when you start really owning [00:36:00] that, I've had women mostly who I give them an exercise to do. And within a couple of weeks, that's all they've done is this internal exercise. And people are going. Did you lose weight?
[00:36:12] Did you change your hair? And it's only this internal exercise. And I give men an external exercise to do and the same thing happens for them. People are like, what did you change? And they're like, it was just Christine's advice. I mean, how lucky is that? And they don't ever have to tell them what they've done.
[00:36:29] They just feel different. They feel better. They feel like they're owning themselves. If you want to get, be a better person, like you have things you want to improve, beating yourself up doesn't work. So the more you think, I am pretty terrific now, and I want to learn that, you will have so much more energy to learn the new thing I've discovered.
[00:36:51] So
[00:36:52] Hoyt: Well, it's like if you put on a new suit or something. As a man, you put on a new suit, you feel like [00:37:00] I'm looking good. It changes your entire attitude toward the world. You can walk in with a little swagger, right? Whereas, you know, if you were in the sweatshirt two hours ago, you might have slumped in, right?
[00:37:11] Christine: how do you put that internally so that it's there no matter what you're wearing? Right? That yes, you can feel even more confident in a suit, but I don't want your confidence to lower too much when you put on the sweats. I want you to still feel like a man. And I want the women to still feel beautiful.
[00:37:28] And so many people in the world in one or five categories feel not enough. You know, beautiful, smart, tall, skinny. I mean, really, there's The stuff we beat ourselves up about just makes us feel worse and it overshadows the things we really are fine about.
[00:37:48] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:37:49] Christine: yeah, self confidence is so health.
[00:37:52] Hoyt: You know, and that's attached to the other concept that he talked about which kind of hit home with me a little bit and that was the. fear of rejection,[00:38:00] I mean, everybody has that because nobody wants to feel, rejected. hell, I'm, I'm pretty sure that that's the reason that when I went online to date, I went on Bumble because I at least knew that there was already a checkmark there, right?
[00:38:17] So, I was not risking rejection with that. so that's full disclosure for me.
[00:38:22] Christine: Charming.
[00:38:24] Hoyt: In any case, I think that what I heard Keith talk about was really getting past that for himself, too. And that's got to be connected to the confidence issue.
[00:38:35] Christine: Oh, absolutely, because the word rejection, I believe, is if somebody really knows you and you've gotten to know somebody and then they go, yeah, no, that can feel really rejecting because there's a lot of you that they're saying no thank you to, that somebody doesn't write back to you on a website or you have a couple texts and it [00:39:00] stops.
[00:39:01] People use the word rejection to that all the time. And they really don't know you as a person at all. And there's so many bizarre reasons that you could look like an ax. You, they decided that they don't want somebody who has your color hair. I mean, the stuff that people tell me, cause they're very transparent with me, that they say no thank you to before they've worked with me is astounding in the way that I want you to go, please don't take this personally.
[00:39:29] It's so not personal. And that's why people can get discouraged and disheartened and give up after. How many times did you try twice and it was terrible? Really, twice? How many cars did you drive before you bought your car? How many houses did you look at? How many dresses do you try on? How many pairs of shoes that you do two times and you get discouraged just because you've put so much importance.
[00:39:52] on this person who they haven't earned the right to have you feel this way about them yet. [00:40:00] So I put things in perspective. When you have it in perspective, you go, Oh, well, I can go into this with an open mind and not an open heart. People say, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I go, well, I think God had a different idea.
[00:40:14] He put it inside your body behind ribs. So, somebody needs to work at having access to that and you need to stop putting it on your sleeve because he didn't think that was a good idea. so one of the things I'm going to say out loud is when you approach a new person, the two things, you're not looking for a partner, you're not looking for a husband, you're not looking for every person that's not on the list of the first meeting.
[00:40:35] The first meeting is how much you're going to learn about yourself. We've talked about who you are and what you need and want. Let's see how you do in the real world. It's an experiment. It's a, it's a fun journey. It's, it's not to be made fun of you. It's not scary. You're like, how comfortable was I? Wow.
[00:40:51] Could I really start asking questions? Maybe I need a little more coaching around that. Or, wow, I got some really interesting answers. And wow, I really did feel [00:41:00] more comfortable than I expected. And what are you going to learn about this other person? Not, if you want to be with them forever. The determination is do you want to spend a second time with them.
[00:41:10] But there's been people I wasn't going to spend a second time with that were fascinating. They're doing interesting things. Their kids, their ex wives. It was a fascinating conversation, even if we didn't have enough to see each other another time. So, if you go with this expectation, you will guarantee succeed.
[00:41:27] These are successes. Where you go, I failed every time. Well, no, if you go with these two things, you will succeed every time. Guaranteed. I'll give you your money back if you don't learn something about you and something about them. So when you feel confident enough that you aren't going to feel rejected, if you don't like them or, oh, heaven forbid, they don't like you, you still learn stuff, you're getting better at.
[00:41:50] Talking about yourself. You're getting better at asking for what you need and want. You're getting better at asking them about who they are. I mean, isn't that why we all went to [00:42:00] school? You didn't know how to do algebra until somebody taught you. You don't know how to do this kind of dating unless somebody teaches you.
[00:42:08] You're just uneducated about it, but you're really smart. You can learn. And it's, and what I hear all the time is, Oh, it was so much work and drudgery. Now it's fun. I go, I know. It's really supposed to be fun.
[00:42:20] Hoyt: So, it's really transformative if you just reframe it correctly It's like if you're looking for a job, And you have these ideal jobs that you want. Well, you're probably going to set up some practice interviews ahead of time, right? Where the bar is really low and, you know, if you don't get it, that's fine, but you learn something about how you interview.
[00:42:43] You learn something about how they interview. It's the same thing in dating,
[00:42:47] Christine: And the more that you learn about you and get more comfortable in the world. I, that's why I became a added life coaching because people were having better relationships with coworkers, [00:43:00] better relationships with their family, their children. Because when you feel self confident, you can speak your truth.
[00:43:07] You can hear their truth better that it's not. They're not picking on you. They're just saying, this is my truth. You can now approach life in a much better solid way. The more self confident, and it's not arrogance at all. I'm a really nice person. I was born this way and I thought, oh my god, if I start sticking up for myself and telling people, you know, this isn't working for me, I'm going to be one of those bitchy people that I don't like.
[00:43:32] It turned out I'm even nicer now. I don't feel taken advantage of. I speak my truth and people step up and do it or they don't. And it's been a much, I, I did it in my forties and now I'm 72. And it's been a really wonderful journey that I've learned how to do that all these years. 'cause it was hard before that.
[00:43:51] Hoyt: Well, that's fantastic. Let's dig into the actual process here because I really want to get to this idea of reverse engineering and this [00:44:00] process of understanding. What's really important to you is... Is something that you do have people do right off the bat, right? Or like, what you're looking for in a partner, it's not that that's not important.
[00:44:14] It's just that that's the baseline from which the real work starts. So, walk me through that process of determining what your most important elements of must haves and nice to haves are.
[00:44:30] Christine: Okay. So our first time together when I'm working with clients is I have them fill out a list of what they have to have, what they can't have, what would be nice to have. And the four categories in each of those is mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. And what we do is, they come up with words. And then we come up with sentences.
[00:44:57] And then we come up with paragraphs. [00:45:00] Because almost everybody says, I want somebody who's honest. What does honest mean to you? And what are you willing to be honest about? And what do you need the other person to be honest about? And they say, I want somebody who's funny and they make me laugh. Well, talk about what makes you laugh.
[00:45:21] my late husband was a big practical joker. He told me pretty soon that much practical jokes he and his son did. And I said, I'm always happy to hear about them. Never do it to me. I see no humor in them. They upset me. I will cry. You'll be so sorry. So he informed everybody, do not ever do that to Christine because she doesn't like them.
[00:45:43] But I like Slapstick. I like double meanings. I like, you know, smart, but it feels like smart comedy to me. So I was really clear about that in my profile. So the other thing that's really important is that you talk about in these four categories of mental, emotional, [00:46:00] physical, and spiritual. Even if you're not a spiritual person, say that and what you expect from the other person to be.
[00:46:07] And sometimes if people have had really hard relationships, I have them start with the do what you can't have list. Start with that. You know that really well. Write it all out. And then what you're going to do is you're going to do the I have to have that's a cross. So I can't have somebody who's dishonest.
[00:46:21] I want somebody who's honest. What does that mean? I can't send somebody who can't manage money. I want somebody that can manage money like this, like I do. And the fourth one, the what about you, men have a much easier time filling that out. Women have a harder time.
[00:46:38] Hoyt: Why is that?
[00:46:41] Christine: well, we're not good. We think it's bragging somewhere in our family.
[00:46:44] They probably told us it was bragging. And we often, when people say, oh, you're so smart, we go, oh, not really. When men say we're beautiful, we'll point out all the 12 things we think are wrong with us. So for women who have a trouble with that, I say take this list and go [00:47:00] to your best friend or the person who has your back.
[00:47:03] The person who loves you madly has your best interest at heart and have them fill it out or tell you and write it down and you cannot edit it at all. You have to just write down everything they say because If you're not feeling self confident, if you can't fill out this list, your self confidence is probably pretty low.
[00:47:22] So this is one of the ways we start building your self confidence up. The other thing is you're going to sit across the table from somebody who says, tell me about yourself. And you're going to go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. if you've written about why you're a catch and why you're a wonderful person mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually, that you love, I am a horse person.
[00:47:43] I am passionate about horses. I love spending time with them. Um, I love to cook, but I like cooking with somebody. I'd much rather have a sous chef or be theirs. So those are the kinds of things I put on my list. And so then once you've filled out these four things, then we [00:48:00] prioritize them. Everything cannot be a ten.
[00:48:03] It's amazing how if you get like the top three things, the top tens, the other things become less important or they'll adjust. So, those are the things, these top three things you have to have from a person. And the top three things, you want to make sure you tell them about you. And within this wonderful not interrogating, not interviewing time together the first time, you're going to find all these out.
[00:48:31] So, my suggestion always is to start out saying, I'm so curious. I really like to travel and this was the last place I went and I'm the kind, truly I'm the kind of person I have to make plans, I pack so much stuff, I really bring a lot of stuff. And this is why I like having organized trips, I like having tours but I'll do a little spontaneity.
[00:48:55] How about you? Tell me about yours, I'm so curious. [00:49:00] So that could maybe not be a deal breaker but you're learning, they're learning about me and I'm learning about them because my late husband. I told him I pack, I get my suitcase out three days ahead of time and he packed for a European trip in a half an hour.
[00:49:13] And we just thought each person was interesting and how fun that we did it so differently and nobody gave anybody a hard time. But I'd had people in my life travel with me or went, Oh my God, you bring so many things and Oh my God. And I'm like, I don't want to travel with people like that. And I certainly wouldn't want to spend my whole life with them.
[00:49:30] So These lists are really helpful. They're very helpful for writing a profile because you now know what you want to put in your profile in a story. You tell a story about who you are and who you're looking for. Like I said, I love to cook with a sous chef, or I'm happy to be a sous chef. I like taking breaks in the kitchen and dancing.
[00:49:50] I'm happy to do dishes together. I tell a story about what it's like for me around food. So they know. So what my husband said when he read my profile [00:50:00] is. Wow. Those are all me. Check, check, check. And oh, those are the things I'm looking for. Check, check, check. Because I had been working on my profile for five years.
[00:50:09] I have my clients do much faster than me, but I guess I was in training to do this. So that when you're really clear about who you are and what you really want and need, the right person goes, Oh yeah, that, that's me. I mean, it sounds like that's what happened with you and your lovely wife. That you looked at each other on your profile and then met and talked to them.
[00:50:30] Jeez. Look at this person, they're so for me. And so the more you write about that, so first you write these lists and get really clear about them and then put them on your profile. It works really well. That's what Mr. Keith did.
[00:50:45] Hoyt: So I remember in the first date that I had with my wife, Katie, that one of the things that she said at the end of the evening was. You know, it feels like we grew up on the same street, which, that has so [00:51:00] many positive connotations, that I feel like I know you, and if you can get to just meeting somebody and knowing them, regardless of whether that's a perspective romantic partner or not, that's a gift from the universe. It always is.
[00:51:18] Christine: It's amazing. It's so amazing. And so we don't want to have everybody think that's how it has to be on the first date. Mine was not that on the first date. I had to grow in love with my husband. He fell in love much faster than I, but that's not surprising. He's a much more. Fast moving person he was than me.
[00:51:36] I've always been a pokey person about everything. but what I told people was from the first lunch, I was like, I like him. I like how I feel with him. I like what he says. I like the questions he asked me. I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. And I felt like that every time. It just took me a while to fall in love. in like pretty fast. So [00:52:00] I love when I hear stories of people go, wow, right from the beginning. And I'm going to tell them that's not for everybody. And don't say no, thank you. If it doesn't happen right away, because liking the other person, my brother and sister in law, I've been married for, Almost 49 years.
[00:52:16] And the lady I ride horses with every week has been married almost 60 years and they like each other to this day. So they're their favorite people. Just that they have separate lives that they do lots of things, but they love being together. And that's what you're looking for. That's why chemistry is not enough.
[00:52:33] You have to also like them from, you have to go, well, this is a person I could like. I could like them. I want to see them again. They seem likable. They seem like the kind of person I would like. That's a great place to start. Don't you think?
[00:52:48] Hoyt: Absolutely. You know, there is the other side of that which is where there is one aspect that you find so attractive in those early meetings that [00:53:00] the oxytocin kind of kicks in and clouds the rest of your vision.
[00:53:04] Christine: That chemistry, her hormone fog, rose colored glasses. It's what I really watch with my clients. I am, I am there. sane side throughout their dating process to say, I hear how excited you are. Let's just ask more questions. I'm fine that you're so excited. Let's just ask more questions. And it's sad when it doesn't work out.
[00:53:31] Eventually they do find somebody, but when it doesn't work out, they're not devastated. Because you can be really devastated if you've gone from zero to 65 in two dates and seeing this huge future and they don't work out. Then, so if you think, this is how much I'm willing, this is how much I like them.
[00:53:52] You have to be this much willing to hurt. It's always even. If you're going to zoom this far, then you could, are you, is it, have they earned the right [00:54:00] to, you hurt this much? My husband earned the right for me to be heartbroken because I loved him that much when he died. So that's the way to look at it.
[00:54:09] It's not very romantic, but getting your heart broken over and over isn't very romantic either.
[00:54:14] Hoyt: yeah. Oh my gosh, I know so many couples that, really started out I would call them friends, you know, they knew that they were going to be friends, they knew they were going to be friends. And as they got to know more of each other, that's when the love really kicked in, right?
[00:54:32] Christine: And that's the majority of people, for sure.
[00:54:34] Hoyt: and they're fantastic couples, these, these ones that I'm thinking about.
[00:54:37] You know, they're, they, you would say they're made for each other,
[00:54:40] Christine: that's how my brother and sister in law are. Yeah, they were very, very good friends in the beginning. They met in college and it just was an evolution. And they're so, they've been so good together in almost 49 years. It's really remarkable.
[00:54:56] Hoyt: So Christine, when you've got these lists. And you've got your [00:55:00] characteristics and you've got the desired characteristics from this prospective romantic partner. Is it valuable to try to look from the eyes of this prospective partner at you? And what if you find out that, Oh, well, I'm actually not a great fit for that kind of person.
[00:55:23] You ever see that happen?
[00:55:25] Christine: And certainly it comes from these I'm so curious questions. Often, um, if somebody's really religious. You know, they read the Bible every day and they spend two days at church and they've got all this chemistry with somebody who is an atheist.
[00:55:43] Hoyt: Yep.
[00:55:44] Christine: So how could we work this out? Could we work this out? What other things do we have in common?
[00:55:50] And how would I spend, how would you feel about me sitting here reading the Bible? And how would I feel about if you don't sit and read the Bible? I've coached people through those kinds of [00:56:00] conversations and when it's that big of a divide, The majority of them, it didn't work out, but they left in fine ways with each other.
[00:56:09] Some of them are still friends and the ones who have worked it out, there were so many of you. The other things on the list were so solid that they were like, and so what I also talk about is because I coach people that are already in relationships that you keep checking in. How you doing? How you doing?
[00:56:28] With everything, including this thing where we had this big difference. Are you still okay with it? Do we have any more conversations about that? Because the Gottlieb people are the ones who talk about resentment is the relationship killer. And that's how resentment starts. When you feel like I'm giving up too much, they're not giving up as much as me.
[00:56:51] Well, either side could do that. If you have this. What I call the business of the relationship every week. You put it on your [00:57:00] calendar and you talk about all the good things. What happened this week? What did we accomplish together? there was that little speed bump and we handled it really well and that was terrific.
[00:57:08] And well, this thing came up for me and I, I really, this is our time to talk about it, right? And you have tools. I give them tools of how to work through this. It doesn't turn into this months of resentment where. Often the women will go, six months ago and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Where if you've talked every week, cause there's times when there's only, wow, it was a really good week.
[00:57:29] Toast to us. Cause men hate that. We got to talk conversation because you know, they're going to, we're going to bring up something. You have no idea what we're talking about and you've been the bad guy in the end of the story. So if it's, you know, every week. We're going to only, we're going to start out talking about good stuff and there might be a bump that we're going to, and I get to talk to as the guy and she gets to talk and you know how to do this active listening that I teach back and forth.
[00:57:55] It just bloop, bloop. Most of the time, bloop and people, it's [00:58:00] not very romantic. I go, well, resentment's not romantic. And what couples tell me, and I'm gonna use it as a carrot, is their sex life improved as they started doing this unromantic thing, lots of romantic things came from the revisiting. How are we doing?
[00:58:17] Especially if it's a bunch of good stuff. Well let's go celebrate that with a roll in the hay. I mean, we women. When we feel dismissed, when we don't feel heard, when we don't feel listened to, when we don't feel cared about, which is often you have no idea that we're feeling this way because we don't tell you, we pull back most women physically and emotionally.
[00:58:40] And Sex is a wonderful way to reconnect as a couple. It's so much fun and who doesn't want to pass up an orgasm? Not me. So if this can encourage that , why wouldn't you do it?
[00:58:52] Hoyt: Absolutely.
[00:58:54] Christine: pitch about the weekly meeting.
[00:58:57] Hoyt: Well, Christine, I feel like we could talk [00:59:00] for two more hours here and not exhaust this topic. This has been so fun, but we're just about out of time here. And then before we go, I want you to remind people of how they can find you online, how they can listen to you. And, uh, connect with you.
[00:59:17] Christine: Thank you, Hoyt, I appreciate you asking that. So the best way is through my website, which is www. theperfectcatch. com. And you can click on what's holding you back from love, and that will give you access to my online calendar to schedule a complimentary hour conversation with me. You can talk about, you know, what's concerning you, what's happened that wasn't helpful, what you'd really like in your future, and see if we're gonna...
[00:59:43] be able to work together. I tell people it's kind of like the first meeting on a date. We'll see if we're a match for each other and if I really can help you with what the problems are. You're also welcome to send me an email at christine at theperfectcatch. com. Also on my website is all my social [01:00:00] media.
[01:00:00] My wonderful web designer just put all the little symbols so you can click on Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube and Pinterest. And I do, um, a live podcast every Thursday at one o'clock Pacific, and there's a link to that so you can see my podcast every week where my co hosts vary. So you get a male and female point of view like this, um, on all sorts of dating and relationship questions and concerns that people have.
[01:00:27] And we have a whole library of almost 150. We've been doing it for three years now. And so that's a really fun thing that people are liking and sharing. Even if it's not you, you can share it with your friends that are having problems. Everybody has a friend that's having problems.
[01:00:43] Hoyt: Well, listen, that's great. I have loved having you here, Christine Baumgartner. Thank you so much for coming today.
[01:00:49] Christine: Me too, Hoyt. I hope we can do it again soon.
[01:00:52] Hoyt: I am hoping so too. Thanks again.
[01:00:55] Christine: Thank you. Bye bye.
[01:00:59] Hoyt: I hope [01:01:00] you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And preparing to publish this conversation. I probably relisten to it three or four times. Getting something new every time. We'll be back again next week with another episode of behind the swipe. Until then. Swipe fearlessly.