Episode 5 - is chemistry real?

is chemistry real?

We’ve often heard (and maybe even said ourselves) that “We just didn’t have chemistry.” But what does that really mean? This week, my co-host Dr. Karin Luise and I listen to stories from daters who have experienced the exhilaration of the immediate fireworks of an instant chemistry with a prospective partner AND from those whose chemistry developed over time. We’ll also hear from daters who no longer expect a big bang (at least not in the context of chemistry) and are taking the long view.

We talk about the insightful research from Dr. Helen Fisher and her studies of how personality types and biology influence who we feel chemistry with and who we don’t.

I encourage you to take her personality test at: The Anatomy of Love

To hear more about Dr. Fisher’s findings, check out one of her Youtube videos here, or her book, “Why Him? Why Her?”

This week’s Guest Co-Host

Dr. Karin Luise

Dr. Karin is a Master Life Coach, Best-selling Author, Course Creator and Inspirational Speaker. She helps people remember their true power and purpose by letting go of the past and igniting the potential of their future.

She combines her 20+ years of clinical, counseling & coaching experience with her spiritual gifts as an intuitive and medium to help clients create lives of wild, sacred freedom.

She has been featured in a wide array of media outlets, including Forbes, Huffington Post, the Hallmark Channel, CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC and Bustle.

When she’s connecting people with their soul missions, she can be found dancing in the kitchen with her 3 kids & 2 rescue pups in her hometown of Atlanta.

To learn more about my co-host Dr. Karin check out her website at DoctorKarin.com or her Youtube channel here.

Instagram: @doctorkarin

Transcript:

Hoyt: 0:03

This is Behind The Swipe,the podcast that takes you inside the lives of real men and women over40who have taken the plunge into the Offen,Burkey,and sometimes exhilarating world of online dating.Each week,we explore new topics through the experiences and expectations of real online daters just like you.I'm your host,Hoyt Prisock.Join me as we peel back the one dimensional dating profiles to discover the real men and women behind the swipe.Today we're gonna talk about chemistry and relationships.On one hand,everyone knows what it is.Potential relationships that failed often get tagged with the phrase we just didn't have Chemistry.While we all understand the meaning here,few of us really know what chemistry really is.So today we're gonna hear from several daters on both their experiences and expectations around chemistry.We'll hear from Mark who thought he'd experienced chemistry early in his online dating experience,only to discover that he really didn't know chemistry at all.We'll hear from Charlotte whose experience in chemistry was not a big bang,but rather a slow boil.And we'll hear from Chloe.Who believed that she felt true fireworks in her first rebound relationship after her divorce,but has struggled to experience that same magic in the years since.So I can't wait to dig into this topic.And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Dr.Karin.Dr.Karin is a master life coach,bestselling author,course creator,and inspirational speaker.She helps people remember their,their true power and their purpose by letting go of the past and igniting the potential of their future.She combines20plus years of clinical counseling and coaching experience with her spiritual gifts as an intuitive and medium to help clients create lives of wild,sacred freedom.While she's been featured on a wide array of media outlets,including Forbes,Huffington Post Hallmark,channel C Nnn,Fox,a B C C B S N B C,and the Bustle,we're happy to have her here with us today and when she's not connecting people with their soul missions,she can be found dancing in the kitchen with her three kids and two rescue pups.In our hometown of Atlanta.Dr.Karin,thanks so much for coming today.

Karin: 2:51

Oh,what a great intro.Thanks for having me.I'm so excited to dive into this topic.We've got a lot of juicy things to talk about.

Hoyt: 2:57

We do,So let's,let's start with how the dictionary defines,chemistry in the context of romantic relationships.It says,Chemistry is a complex mix of emotional,biological,and situational factors that create a unique bond between two individuals,and it's often characterized by a strong emotional connection,mutual understanding,and natural compatibility.Well,that's simple and and generic.So,Dr.Karn,how do you understand chemistry in relationships?

Karin: 3:35

Well,you know,that was beautifully defined in a,in a scientific way.I think because of the work that I do,which is what,you know,we're gonna be kind of,I know,comparing and contrasting different ideas of chemistry.Now you've got this biological chemistry,you have chemistry that you think about in your mind.But the way that I like to look at it is kind of from a soul perspective,and it's based on your emotional feelings around somebody and how deeply you connect to that person.Um,Making you feel you know better when you're around them.Or if you don't have chemistry,you're not gonna be really feeling like yourself.So I think when we're really connecting to somebody and having that authentic chemistry,you kind of feel like you're home.Right.So I really wanna talk about like kind of the emotional connection and how your souls using your emotions as your voice kind of channeling through you as you're having those dates and doing all the experimenting that we do out there in the dating world.

Hoyt: 4:24

Oh,that's perfect.That's perfect because the,one of the big reasons that I was really excited to have you here is that,you know,people who have listened to this podcast know that I tend to often take sort of an analytical approach to understanding what's,what's really going on.And,I'm fascinated with,with psychology and neuroscience,and I know you are as well.But our two perspectives,I think,while not really differing all that much,really come at this from a different angle.And so I'm anxious to hear from these daters that we've got,uh,teed up here,that,but Dr.Karon,there are a few things that I'm particularly curious about and,and these are the things that I want to explore with us is one is that I wanna understand whether that feeling of having great chemistry with another person is really a prerequisite.To a solid romantic relationship.Right.I I wonder if people,when they speak of chemistry,are they really just using that as a,a code word for love?Right?is that the same or are there different aspects to that?And then it also feels to me that chemistry can exist in multiple facets of,of relationship.So somebody might have sexual chemistry,right?They might have,uh,a shared sense of humor and that forms,a,chemistry for them,a shared worldview.I don't know.There might be a dozen of those facets out there,and I don't think anybody really hits a hundred percent.But what is that threshold?I.That makes a person say yes.I,I feel that that chemistry and then finally the chemistry is either there or it's absent at the start.And I think a lot of us feel that if I don't feel that chemistry right away,it's not there and not going to happen.and we're gonna hear some perspectives.That will argue that maybe that's not true.But let's start with that one and your perspective on,whether chemistry can be developed or is it something that the universe just brings into your soul.

Karin: 6:35

I think it's both.I think the answer always,so I'm a,I have a PhD in counseling and education and as a counselor,the answer is always,it depends.So,and it's both,you know,it's not an either or.I think it's an and.I think depending on the relationships that succeed there,Either one.We probably all have friends that either I have specifically friends and I've had experiences where you either fall hard and fast and that can last,right?Like,you know it the second you meet them.And I have friends and I've had experiences myself where like,you really weren't,that turned on at first and you whatever,and you know,you wouldn't,you kinda looked past them in the room and they weren't your ideal type.Like you hear that a lot from people,right?Like they weren't really someone they would've put on their roster initially,but.As time goes on,you know,there's an unfolding and you know,I think that we can be open to both.We can be open to,this initial chemistry that really ignites all those feel good chemicals that I know we're gonna unpack a little bit.Um,that dopamine rush that's,you know,serotonin release and all that,that gives you,you know,good feelings and all your good parts but also over time,I've definitely heard it argue that sometimes when it's like rocket launch,Insane chemistry in the beginning.Like it tends to fire up really fast and heat up and then it can also fizzle out just as fast.So I think,I think from my experience is that the best relationships are the ones that you are okay with kind of a.Not that you can't have that initial ignition,but that slow walk in when you're feeling a development and evolution of chemistry and you're peeling back the layers.And you know,most people get this,it's not solely based on physical,right?Cuz we all know that.And dating like you do have those hot dates that you kind of wanna get physical and then they fizzle out.But being really open to,even if you're not feeling it in the beginning,like.There's just something there that makes you curious,right?Like that's an emotion that's kind of in my opinion,your soul's voice saying just like,just hang in here and like get curious about that person,because you never know.Maybe there's like an intellectual,like you were saying,a component that is on a different layer and then you get fired up because you make that,and I call it zinging,like you zing.You know,you have that little,oh,I didn't realize that about you.And then there's this unfolding of this beautiful soul that you would've looked past had you not.Agree to be more curious and witness an evolution and experience that yourself.

Hoyt: 8:49

Wow.That's,a great observation.I,and I appreciate that.You know,I,I was thinking about the,chemical aspects of whatever,w whatever this is,we call chemistry and those early sort of physical,attractions.

Karin: 9:03

Mm-hmm.

Hoyt: 9:04

and,interactions that are touch oriented,right?The brain is releasing these oxytocins,right?And those oxytocins are really a bonding agent.So they create that.And when you talk about this explosion at the beginning,well,you could certainly have that and it can sometimes kind of fool your brain into thinking,ah,this is,there's chemistry here and this is my,this is my person.So I mean,it's all just incredibly fascinating.

Karin: 9:34

It isn't.I mean,I'm sure,gosh,everyone listening right now is like,I mean,we've all been through,I think,an element of each one.I think kind of like the standard that I've experienced myself is,I feel like,not that you're asking this,but it's kind of like.It takes a good nine months,like even like just a year to where like you go through life events because you kind of need to know how the person responds to their family and you have how they respond to,you know,maybe there's a death in the family or there's sickness or there's something that challenges the relationship.And so you know that chemistry.In the beginning,you don't know any of that about somebody,and it's super freaking awesome to have,you know,sexual compatibility and all that.I mean,we all desire that in a relationship as a,as a pillar,right?That's one of the pillars we all want.But you know,learning to love that person then through life,like I do think that like,I don't know,my go-to is like at nine months,You kind of find out who that person really is and you know,while it may seem incredible at the beginning,you realize,eh,but then it can also go the other way where you're like,wow,I really,I wasn't that turned on by this person in the beginning,but because like I've witnessed how beautiful maybe a father they are,or how they handled their father's sickness or whatever it is,that life brings your way.You can fall in love with another aspect which can then deepen,you know,the physical connection.

Hoyt: 10:49

So that,that is an argument for it,really giving it an opportunity to develop over time.And we're gonna hear from some folks here,I,I think,who have some interesting perspectives on that.I think the first one that I want to introduce here is a man named Mark,he's from New England.He's in his,early fifties.Mark experienced one of those long,long,long divorces,right?So,you know,part of it was due to the pandemic and it was not an acrimonious divorce.I mean,they,they had maintained a business partnership and a friendship in this just knowing that they were going to get divorced.So when mark finally did get divorced.And he put himself online.He very quickly met a couple of women that he was very interested in and developed,an early nascent.relationship with.Let's hear his story about how this worked out.

Mark: 11:46

intellectually there was absolute chemistry.I mean,both of them fit what fit the bill for me in that we could sit down and have fascinating conversations about almost everything.For me,that was so important because I had not had that in my relationship with my ex-wife.We could talk about things and all like that,but we,we were on different levels in the context of where we were coming from.Both of these people were very successful and intellectual people.So intellectually,there was definite chemistry.Fun wise and laughing wise,I can really only speak to the one I ended up going out with cuz the other one I didn't have that opportunity.But when we were together,we laughed a lot.You know,there were things there I think that would've been interesting as well.But yeah,fun wise there was chemistry as well.We clicked on things.We liked doing a lot of the same things we,but she had some limitations,which I had to get used to,which in the end that,and some of her idiosyncrasies just ended up.Gnawing at me.And,and that's where I realized the chemistry wasn't there.

Hoyt: 12:52

So that was Mark,right?That's the,that's the first part of what I wanted you to hear from Mark.But he's bringing up exactly the point that we were talking about,right?There was attraction that he was interpreting his chemistry and.On a couple of things that are important to him,right?He wants intelligent conversation.He wants somebody that he can laugh with.I mean,we all do,right?But,but he was interpreting that,and so in his mind he was thinking,well,a,this was so much better than what I had in,in my25years of marriage,that this could be the way it's supposed to be,And so,It's interesting and I want,I want to hear your perspective on like,Mark's experience of this and how the people that you know and that you see,can kind of fool themselves into thinking,well,this is as good as it gets.

Karin: 13:49

Well,a few things came up as I was listening to him.Well,and I'm,I'm also single,so I have my own experiences as well,on apps and all that.So,you know,I'll,I'll apply both of'em,um,as he was talking.You know,I was thinking about how often when we're coming out of especially a long-term marriage or relationship,we,there's something that was really lacking,whether it's,so he was pinpointing the intellectual chemistry.So oftentimes it's the sexual chemistry or whatever it is.the pendulum tends to swing way back the other way,usually on the next person that we find,because you're so hungry to fill the void that was there in the last relationship.So for him,it sounds like that intellectual chemistry,So I like to look at it as,so from a soul perspective,every relationship that you bring in is there to help you grow.And it's there to teach you something,not to punish you or test you or anything like that,but it's there to help you refine what you want.And,you know,we call people in,in my perspective as a spiritual,like I help people with spiritual,um,their spiritual,spiritual journeys.You're calling people in to help you grow.So when,you know,when you we're looking at this analytically,yes,he's kind of fooling himself maybe because this didn't pan out,but in my opinion,it's like,well,you're on a soul journey,so you,you get this,this thing fed in this intellectual side of you,right?Which is,you know,basically in your logical mind,you're getting fed.It's intellectual,oh my gosh,I've never had conversations like this before.Like,and that,that's,it's kinda like food for your soul,right?But then over time,once I think you kind of get that satiated and it gets a little normalized.then it's like,okay,well what else does this person have to offer?Again,soul journey.I'm,I'm refining what I desired.No relationship,in my opinion,is really a wrong or right.It's like we choose to be in that relationship on a soul level to help us learn something.Okay?And so in that,he learned that,wow,like this is important.So yes,I want this again,the pillar.So to me,the pillars are like our value system.So,you know,sexual chemistry,intellectual chemistry,that's a pillar,right?So,and it's based on his values.So he really values,I do too.Like intellectually it's so hot in a man if,if you're not intellectual,like y I'm,I can't,you can't,some people that's not that important.But if that's one of your values and oftentimes those values get bigger because you didn't experience it in their last relationship.So that value becomes front and center.Therefore,he attracted somebody that had that.I'm gonna.I look at it energetically.That was in her field.That's part of what she brought.But then over time,once that kind of normalized,he realized,I love,he said,eat idiosyncrasies.My daughter,my15year old daughter calls it getting the ick.like those things that like all of a sudden you realize the way they chew or you kind of would put it to the side,like the way they chew their food or maybe the way that they aren't grammatically correct or whatever it is.That's also maybe a value of yours.Maybe manners or being,you know,very good at grammar and you don't realize that because you're.Really trying to feed this other side of you.So then as that normalizes,these other things kind of come to the surface and you're like,wow,I also kind of really value this thing over here,and this idiosyncrasy is not a match to what I really value.And so I don't really see it as so much fooling the self as well.So I've now refined what I want.Like there's nothing wrong about being in this relationship,but now I really realize that I also want this.And it's something I really can't look past,and that's totally okay and I'm gonna go and try to find somebody next,right?That's more of an energetic match to me,so I like to look it up that way.

Hoyt: 16:59

So,with Mark,this relationship that he was talking about,where he was feeling the chemistry on a couple of different levels did ultimately end up petering out,like you said,I think it,it lasted about six months or so,and then when he began dating again,that's when the story really got interesting.So I'd like to hear sort of the second half of,of,of Mark's story.

Mark: 17:24

we could come up with,analogies or,or metaphors,however we want on this,but I think there's the difference between taking Aleve and getting morphine.Aleve there,there's proportional chemistry.Morphine is blissful.You're done.And,and when you're in a relationship,which I feel like I'm in now,which,whatever hallucinogenic you wanna use or drug like that,I,I,I,I am in constant overdose right now.I did not know someone could be as happy as I am right now in every way,shape,or form.And we just click in every way,shape or form.We have chemistry.You know,and I,and I,and from what you're saying now,and I love the fact that you're doing this,I now know what chemistry is.Just like I now know what true love is because having been with this person now for two years,which in my opinion is time enough to know whether or not there are idiosyncrasies that drive you crazy,whether are habits,whether anything in their personal life,their belief system like that,where you're like,oh,you know what?I just can't take that,or I gotta walk out of the room.Nope.Hasn't happened,And and so I,I appreciate the idea of chemistry and I feel like the person I'm with now,there's chemistry

Hoyt: 18:42

So that goes to exactly what you were just talking about.Right is that he gave it the two year,I mean,he's been in this relationship now for two years and whether,whether this is just the perfect woman or he,he doesn't have,she doesn't have any idiosyncrasies or it's more likely that his brain is like wiring him to look past those.Right.

Karin: 19:08

Yeah,I think you know,Those idiosyncrasies,those things that may have given you,as my daughter calls it,the ick with someone else.Um,when there's that pure,deeper connection of,of love,you know,you can call it whatever.There's like an agape love as the Bible can call it,where there's this kind of unconditional,that's a loaded word,but you,you tend to,those things tend to just.Kind of disappear because you have such a basis of such a strong,energetic connection.And I think that even if they're doing the same thing,because this person is just a better soul match for you and like,because he went through that other relationship.Now when he found this,there's probably more of an appreciation,right?I mean,to me it's always perfect timing,you know?So then when she slid in and he slid in for her,you know,they were in alignment with each other.And so what he is talking about is alignment.And alignment is when you're feeling,you know,you line up on all those things and of course nobody's perfect and relationships do take,they evolve and we,we tend to change and grow.But when you're in alignment like that,like none of that other stuff really matters.When you have that true love like that stuff that would bug you with someone else,just,it's not so strong.It's not so big.So I loved just now hearing that.I hope that that gives people so much hope,those that are looking and swiping right now,just to hear that story,it really brings a lot of hope.

Hoyt: 20:19

I found it really,really inspirational you know,it made me think of,um,so when I was doing some research for this show,I came across,um,I.Of all things.An anthropologist,right?An anthropologist named Helen Fisher,and she has a very interesting background.She studies love,lust and attachment as the human condition and some very interesting perspectives from it.It turns out that match.com,back in the mid.Two thousands brought her in to help them understand what it was that determined whether two people would click together on online.So she had created and,and like coincidentally,it's exactly the same time that.My speed dating application was running as a match.com service,so I'm surprised that I didn't come across her in the organization at that at that point in time.But she was working on,this was ages ago and match.com had started new site and they owned57sites or something like that.Right?Like farmers only,or even probably one of

Karin: 21:41

Oh,right.Yeah.

Hoyt: 21:42

So a bunch of different niche kind of,sites,but they were being impacted from a business standpoint,by eHarmony.Right.That was going into the No,we're gonna find scientifically your compatibility.So they were starting something called chemistry.com,and it didn't last more than,than a few years,but she did a research project where she.Gave a pretty thorough,personality survey,uh,which by the way is online that you can still take.And like14million people have taken it so far

Karin: 22:21

Right.

Hoyt: 22:22

called,uh,and it's at a site called The Anatomy of Love.I'll put it in the show notes here so everybody has an opportunity to go and I encourage you to do that.But what she found was that there are really four systems within the brain that all have different levels of influence in each of us,right?And we all have all of these things.So those four areas are,the dopamine system,the testosterone,System.The estrogen system and the serotonin system,right?And none of us are100.There are no buckets in this,right?But if you go do the survey,you kind of find out that these characteristics tend to match the chemistry that that drive you.And yes,of course,at least50%of who you are is influenced by your upbringing,your culture,your genetics,and things like that.But these four systems will help you to understand who it is that you're attracted to and why.Like,uh,for example,the serotonin system,calm rules-based.Uh,these are,these are people that she calls builders,which are,you know,tend to be cautious and,social norm kind of compliant.Well,they tend to bond with each other,right?Whereas the dopamine system,which is the Explorer,I'm gonna try something new and you know,jump off of cliffs and all that kind of stuff.Uh,you know,they're,they're more flexible and I,they would like very likely connect with someone who's estrogen focused,who's the negotiator,the peacemaker,the,um,pro-social empathic right.

Karin: 24:09

right.

Hoyt: 24:09

So it is just really fascinating.I would encourage all of our listeners to go take that survey,But I wanna get your thoughts here on like the,the chemistry,because you're really focused on like what your.Heart and your soul are telling you and how to listen and be guided by that.In this,there's also some chemistry,so how do you sort of weigh those two things,Dr.Carrum?

Karin: 24:37

That research is really extraordinary.Gosh,the fact that she's had so many people take it,that's extraordinary.Um,you know,I mean,I have a clinical background,right?So I,I appreciate all of all of the stuff.So now I'm blending it.So what I look at is your body was created to give you an emotional re.To tell you when things are in alignment and out of alignment with,with who you are.And the way that you feel that is because is,is so those systems are developed to help you read your own emotions.So what happens when you release dopamine,serotonin,testosterone,and,and estrogen is you're gonna have an emotional reaction,right?And so you tend to align,like,like you're saying,and I.I would have to look at her research a little bit deeper,but you're gonna align with one,probably a little bit stronger than others and like you were saying,that would dominate your point of attraction.So,but what's happening inside of you is,you know,you're releasing things that you know are partly because of your programming from what you know when you were raised and what's happened in society.And so you kind of have this set point of.Where you tend to lean based on your life experience and also based on who you innately are genetically and all that.so what happens is,you know,you're gonna get this release,this chemical release in your body,and what that's gonna do then with those chemical.So you're gonna have a thought and then the chemicals are gonna get released.And then what happens after that is you have an emotional reaction and so your body decides,is this.Feel good to me.Like someone,like I'm I don't like to jump out of airplanes.So for me,if somebody wants to plan that date,I'm like intrinsically afraid of heights,like that's gonna spike something that doesn't feel good.To me,that's not,I think it's incredible that people do that,but for me,like I just,I literally would pass out,just going,I,I can't,so,so,point is,Like that's not in alignment with,with my wiring based on,you know,whatever that came from.But you have this emotional reaction.So this is where understanding your soul,so your soul speaks through your emotions.And so we all have this eternal,or this is my belief system anyway,this eternal piece of us.And it resides kind of right here at your midsection,your solar plexus.It's kind of where your soul is.And you also have.You have brain cells down in your gut,it's called your second brain.You actually have neurotransmitters in your gut.So what happens when those chemicals are released is that you get a firing in your gut,right?This feels really good,or,oh gosh,this doesn't,I don't this,no,this doesn't feel good.Whether it strikes a memory in you,you know,the file cabinet gets opened.Oh,this reminds me of the guy that used to do this,or this reminds me of my mom.Or,um,you know,whatever.It's.And so your body's going through all of the above.It's going through mental calculation,it's going through this,this chemical release,and then it's going through this funneling of it down into your gut,and you have an emotional reaction.So your emotional reaction,your soul will tell you if it is in alignment with you,and you will have an expanding feeling in your gut,and that's produced by these chemicals,right?It all works together.So it's,I mean,I'm speaking woowoo,but it's really,it's chemically based.So then you're having this feeling and it's in alignment with you if you have an expansion,like you're like,oh,I mean,it's very simple,or you have a contraction,right?And so what I work on mostly with people is like really trusting that with you,because of course everybody's different,but your soul knows.What is in alignment with you and your body is working,you know,genetically to,to give you that message.And if somebody's not in aligned match with you,you will know it by trusting the way that you feel.So I,I've learned,um,that people often don't trust the way they feel they wanna override it.Um,but y you know,those,your body is here to help you master choices.And if we can listen more to like those gut feelings,then we will just have a simpler ride.I,I don't know if I answered your question,but.I love talking about how it works together.Yeah.

Hoyt: 28:09

yeah,it makes perfect sense to me.And,and it's not one or the other,right?It,it really isn't.I mean,um,Yes,we're,we're all chemical human beings,but it's the result of the interaction of those chemicals that produces who you are and how you are in the world.Right.

Karin: 28:29

Yeah.And we're here to expand.I mean,you're,we're here to grow.And so what you're feeling,so I'll add this in here,from a spiritual perspective,what you're actually feeling when you're in love is,yes,you're feeling love for another human being,but you know,spiritual teachers talk about how we're all mirrors to each other.So you can mirror.Things that are painful,which is people that are really out of alignment or you can mirror a tremendous amount of love towards a person.So really what you're feeling chemically,besides the love that you're feeling for the person,is you're actually feeling a deep feeling of self-love,which connects you to this beautiful source within you that is,is resonant with who you actually were born to be.Like when you fall in love,like your last interview,he was just saying,I.You know,that profound feeling that you could,I'm sure your,your,listeners could hear it through his voice.I could hear it like he was telling his truth,like,I've never felt this.I'm in love.Like what you're actually feeling in a great extent is you're feeling your own.You're feeling your own love for yourself in that reflection,and you're able to be more fully who you are.And that is the sweet spot.And it's beautiful once you get that,because then you realize,wow,like it's about that person.But it's also really about me.Like I'm able to feel home with my myself here and,and that,and that feeling like I'm getting chill bumps as I say it.Like you get this expanded feeling in your soul and it feels so freaking good.And then chem more chemicals get released.Your,your body is wired to reward you with that.That's how.You're created as a divine being,so it's a beautiful orchestration.

Hoyt: 29:54

I love that perspective.So we're gonna take a short break here,and then when we come back,I want to hear from a couple of other daters who have had different experiences than Mark did.

Karin: 30:06

perfect.

Hoyt: 30:10

Behind the swipe is made possible by real online.Daters just like you.Willing to share their personal and authentic stories and perspectives as they seek love,romance and intimacy online.Head on over to behindtheswipe.com.Click the,be a guest link at the top of the page there.You'll learn about some of our upcoming episode topics and how you can help.So we are back.So in the first half you've got introduced to Dr.Karin,Dr.Kern.Is a,life coach,a speaker,she puts courses together.She's just a fabulous human being and I really appreciate her being here today.

Karin: 30:54

Thank you.

Hoyt: 30:55

So we're gonna hear.from a couple of other daters on some different perspectives on what this chemistry is here,and I had had an opportunity to have a rather lengthy conversation with a woman named Charlotte.And Charlotte's story is not the same kind of explosion,but we may have a very similar kind of conclusion to this.So let's hear about Charlotte's experience.

Charlotte: 31:26

So my experience was I kept expecting to really be drawn to someone and feel that chemistry And there were people that I was attracted to.And I,I dated a lot.I made it a mission to go on as many dates as possible.So I,there were people that I was more attracted to But I kept waiting for chemistry.And then I started dating someone more seriously.And I knew he was a real contender for long term.Right away there was something about him.And when I first saw him,I thought,oh gosh,he's cute.I knew right away this was someone I,I could really be serious about.But I,I wasn't,I just wasn't sure.Like I,I kept being ambivalent and I kept thinking,well,I must not love him.I must not love him.And yet I thought about him all the time and I liked the lifestyle we were living and so we would date and then,We would periodically not date.There was never a breakup with a conflict.It was just we weren't dating for a while.And sometimes it was kind of mutually agreed upon.But it was my ambivalence that was really in the way.And yet even when we weren't dating,I would talk about him and I would tell friends little stories about him.And one time after one of our breaks and every time we run a break,I would date a lot of people thinking,okay,I gotta,I gotta be sure cuz I think I'm gonna go back to this guy,but I really wanna be sure.So let me,let me keep practicing.So,So then after,at the end of one of our breaks,I told him,I wasn't sure what our future was,but I couldn't imagine not having him in my life in some way.He was very important to me and so I decided to,to give it some more effort and figure out what was going on.And so.I liked the way we fit in each other's lives in so many ways.We were both urban people.He really cared for my kids,which was important.And I just liked who he was as a person.And,and I mean,and there was chemistry.There was great chemistry in the bedroom.That was,Excellent.But the part about my heart really feeling like I could commit,really feeling like,ah,yes,this is,this is what my heart wants.This is true.but as far as really feeling all in,that was very slow.And I realized eventually that it was just,there was It was really hard for my heart to open up.I had been hurt.It was a deep attachment wound,and in my childhood,I also had some attachment wounds,and I recognized that that made it really hard for me to open up that part of myself.And once I could open up that part of myself,I could really embrace this relationship,embrace him as a partner.I already really liked him.I really liked everything we did.I liked,I liked our sex.I just really was drawn to him in a lot of ways.I just didn't see,I didn't know that it was love in the way that I thought I needed to love.

Hoyt: 34:31

Wow.that really is an interesting perspective,isn't it?And it,it occurs to me that there must be so many people that,like Charlotte,Just aren't allowing themselves to feel that sometimes because of some past traumas or just these attachment issues like she's talking about,but it argues for really what what you were suggesting,which is give it time.

Karin: 35:03

Yeah,and I love that Charlotte talked about,so that there's an awareness piece.You know,there's a,there's a consciousness piece,so she is highly conscious.So when you are really wanting to elevate your life in any way and elevate your dating life,and we all want that,right?You kind of want someone better than you had before.Like,we all wanna keep up leveling,and until we find that match,you know,there is a piece about being really conscious.That,that she's speaking to.And this is a whole nother level where you're conscious of what's informing this,this chemistry and this alignment,whatever word you wanna put on it.But the relationship,the dynamics and you know,her speaking to childhood wounding.I mean,everybody has something,you know,that that's,whether it's from a relationship or from their family of origin,that has created a wound.and it's usually a round attachment that's kind of a.That's come into public awareness recently,you know,being anxious,attachment,being avoidant,attachment,or,you know,being in the middle.most people tend to align with one of those two,areas.And so,you know,once you're conscious of that,like she,I mean,she was discussing coming out of a relationship where there was wounding and she realized there was wounding in her childhood and it was.Preventing her.And again,I wanna say it's all perfect,right?Like it's,give yourself a break.It's all perfect.And I love that she was honest like saying,and so I went and I just thought,there's no way this could be.So,cuz a lot of people don't know how to love in a healthy way,you know?And I,I have been the same way having a really dysfunctional upbringing and,and I've actually been divorced twice and,and two marriages that were highly,you know,dysfunctional.But,you know,it's all perfect now because I,I've grown so much through it and I've,I've learned so much through it.And you know,when we can drop this shame around,Just owning the fact that we've got wounding and you know,so does the person that you're interacting with and being really conscious of,wow,like what's coming up for me right now?Okay,wow,I'm blocking it.Have those feelings,you know,if you need support,get support.But it's like that admission,that consciousness of that wounding and seeing how it's getting in the way,what's beautiful.She talked through her own healing and her ability to say,wow,like,I didn't even know what love felt like,and she described it beautifully,and then she's like,sounds like she's really,really letting him in and allowing herself to blossom past those blocks that were informed by that wounding.And that's,I,I love what she said.

Hoyt: 37:13

So like that experience,in a very different way.I want to introduce you to Chloe.So Chloe has been divorced for about five or six years now.She's in her early fifties.She's got.Grown kids that are now out of the house.And she was telling me about her rebound relationship,where she did feel chemistry.Now the relationship started under somewhat tragic circumstances for the partner that she was with.But.Let me,let her tell the story.

Chloe: 37:52

It was actually the very first relationship that I had his wife had passed away on the day that our divorce agreement was.Was signed,So both of us felt like it was very much of a kind of a nod from the universe and from God that it was like,you know,it's okay to explore this.Like,you know,maybe just need to be there for each other in this moment and let that be.And that's what we did.good chemistry and actually I would say deep love.Yeah.For both of us.And it was,that's a beautiful thing to feel loved after you've been so broken And it lasted like six months and.Then I just knew that because neither one of us had had time to truly grieve and truly actually be single.I just gave us the space to do that and it was super painful.Really,really,really painful.Not something that I really wanted to do,but something that I knew that my soul was saying.Yeah,the chemistry is there,the relationship has been a beautiful relationship.however you need time to heal and he needs time to heal.I just knew in that moment it wasn't right for me

Hoyt: 39:24

So what we heard Chloe say there was that she felt a lot of chemistry with this person,

Karin: 39:34

Mm-hmm.

Hoyt: 39:35

but part of her heart was telling her that.She wasn't ready and he wasn't ready.Is that something that you come across as you work with people?

Karin: 39:47

Yeah.Well,I love Chloe's honesty.I think very often.I mean,divorce is very much like a death and,um,I mean they're obviously different in many respects,but people that go through especially really traumatic divorces that people often say it's worse than if my partner had died.so you have that,you know,that bonding over that trauma that they both have just been through.And so,you know,again,like they attracted each other.You know,be because they both had a need.And you know what's beautiful is she was,she used the word soul several times,which of course I appreciated.Um,you know,relationships come to,to,to,to help us get through things sometimes.And it sounds like they both were booing each other and there for each other and it's perfect and there was a soul connection.And,you know,relationships are eternal.They never die.They just change forms and,you know,who knows what could play out.You know,in six months,six years,whatever,down the road with,with them,and you never know.But what she became aware of,again,her consciousness,what she became conscious of was,there was probably something,um,like she had a knowing,like I,there's some things I probably need to do on my own without us.I mean,people can call that oftentimes like trauma bonding.Um,Without us,you know,going the road that we're going,I feel really need some alone time.And that was a knowing,right?Her soul was telling her and,and a knowing about him maybe too,whether or not he agreed with it,she didn't really say.But,you know,for that,for her to be conscious of that and follow that is,is so huge when people get to that state and they can be willing to go be alone,to do some work,to get some more experience.And it's really,I think it's a very,very healthy choice.And again,it's a knowing.So if she had ignored that knowing what would play out?Something that would've probably been really,really painful for both of them,right?Because then you're staying out of,whenever you're staying out of obligation,um,that that tends to not play out very well.So when you're staying or you're leaving because your soul's calling you a certain direction,again,you never know it could happen in the future,but that's really important to follow.Again,it's your second,it's your second brain.That's your gut telling you it's time to,to go and do something different.

Hoyt: 41:45

And,and part of your core message is listen to that,right?Listen to that.

Karin: 41:49

Yeah.Listen to it.And people,you know,get hurt and you know,we've all been on both sides of it,or most people have,or you're the one leaving or you're the one making a choice.And you know,again,like depending on our attachment style,people that are anxious attached,anxiously attached have a harder time sometimes following that because you think having the relationship's gonna solve everything.But I love in that,response that she just gave,she was like,I just had a knowing.And,you know,it's not that anything was good or bad or right or wrong,it's just this is just something that's necessary for my pathway and it's gonna help me to grow,um,at this time.So,yeah.

Hoyt: 42:23

So Chloe and I had had a wide ranging conversation about a number of topics.And I learned that she did give herself the time to grieve and the time to experience life as a single person.Before making the commitment to.Date again,online.But I was curious about whether this template that she had for her ideal person,both religiously and culturally.govern her decisions around how and whom she would date online.The answer that I got was not what I was expecting.

Chloe: 43:01

I went,went off the reservation.I completely left the reservation.I went.To different planet.I don't really know where I went.I went far,far away.No,I,I've,I've dated,really interesting cool people that I've learned a lot from that.I've learned a lot about myself.I've learned a lot about life.I've learned a lot about men.I've learned a lot about.Just relationships I've learned about what a healthy relationship looks like.with my previous husband,there was chemistry and there was the explosion from my perspective and.I have realized that My soul does not need that explosion.My soul needs to be seen and heard and adored and treated kindly and respectfully.And I didn't experience a lot of that in.The25years that I was married.And it probably went both ways.We,we didn't do a good job of loving each other well.So I've learned so much about that in the last six years that chemistry to me means something different now.And I think it can be built and I think it can develop over time.I don't,I don't know.Everyone's different,but for me,I'm not looking for the explosion anymore.

Hoyt: 44:44

So really that's,you can hear the growth right over,over that period of time.And so she's not expecting that instant magic fireworks.Everything is all of a sudden,you know,a fairy fairytale.Right?

Karin: 45:03

Right,

Hoyt: 45:04

Do you think she's taken this in a really healthy direction?

Karin: 45:07

It's beautiful,you know,I mean,I,myself and friends and,and clients that I have,you know,when you get to that point,you've just,there's a maturity in that.There is a,um,there's just an evolution of,of understanding,um,you know how it goes cuz you know,S I've had so many women tell me this similar story and kind of coming of age when you're like,you know,when you're younger,like you,you these fireworks and there's chemistry and I know,cause I've done it too.Like you're like,oh,I've never felt this way and there's this sort rocket launch and she called it explosion.And you know,over time,I think as again,your values kind of shift and you know,our body chemistry shifts and.You know,I think we really want something that feels more grounding and we don't,again,it's like a,she's had an evolution of consciousness and she's,she's valuing now more the,I think the connection that is,is more,um,it's,it's deeper.It's not just based on chemistry.Not that those are bad,those are fun relationships,but in,in,you know,in my experience,and they can all work.It can work if you have the explosion.It's not that it can't,but typically the ones that are really explosive in the beginnings,Like we said before,tend to be the ones that kind of compete her out just as fast.And they all have a place,right?They all have a place.But I love what she said where she's like,she's not dependent on that anymore.And so probably what she's doing now is she's taking her time to do a slow walk in.She's probably not sleeping with men as quickly as maybe she would have.I mean,this is just kind of a natural thing that.Often happens cuz we're really wanting a connection on a deeper level and we want that heart kind of explosion before we're reliant on the rest.And she worded it very,very well.I love,I love that interview.

Hoyt: 46:42

So do you think Dr.Kern,that too many people might be,you know,because they've got this sort of fairytale romance idea that they might be discounting relationships that could grow into something more.

Karin: 46:58

I think so,and I think that,people discount the value of just some time to work on yourself.Not that it's a necessary thing.I used to wanna punch people on the face that were like,take a year by yourself.You know?I'm like,you take a year by yourself,that being alone sucks.so there's a human side of it,but I think that,I think there,it's,it's undervalued that time.Like I'm in a space personally right now where I have taken like this whole.It's almost been a year where I'm like,but it,at first it was really hard,and I have three of my primary clients are going through the exact same thing.Everyone's about50ish.Right.And they would've had this series of relationships.I,I kind of have seen it play out where then it's like,I'm not gonna look for that.Jump in the sack,oh my gosh.All the fireworks immediately.And,and what I,what you learn then,as you're kind of sampling the buffet,Is you learn like,I'm like,gosh,you get a date around,you can take some time to step back.And then what is really naturally more in alignment with you is gonna come forward instead of looking for that like rocket launch,you know,relationship.And so you end up,you end up,I feel like once you are okay.Like without the,the serious relationship,you're grounded in yourself more.And it sounds like she's,she's gotten there.And it may mean being alone,it may mean just dating.It,it,my,my point is not attaching to relationship after relationship after I call it lily padding,like the frog jumps from lily pad to lily pad.Like I.In my opinion,there has to be some downtime at some point to where you're like,whether that's just dating around or on your own,where you can really be grounded in a little bit,some independence,and then your partner shows up as a whole person because you've kind of learned to be a whole person.You've evolved in a way,and then you're gonna attract somebody.So again,like there's,I'm a big believer in law of attraction,and if you want that on fire,you're gonna attract people that are gonna be hot on fire.But if you're really in that place where you're more evolved,you know,law of attraction says that you're gonna attract a partner who's much more likely to be like you than,than in the past.So that's my favorite topic.

Hoyt: 48:52

I just think that's beautiful,Dr.Karin.So before we,I have one more piece that I want to play,and it goes back to Charlotte.You remember Charlotte slow boil,Charlotte,right?And I just thought that,that she had a great way of summing up her,her perspective here,and I wanted to play that for you.

Charlotte: 49:16

Well,that's a really good one because I think one,online dating,it's so easy for us to fill in the blanks with what we want to hear or want to see,and also fill in the blanks.Of what we think might be wrong after reading a paragraph about one person.So I would counsel them to date a lot,like a lot,and always aim for a second date.The first date is just a meeting.Always aim for a second date so you can be a little more relaxed and get to know the person and just lean in.It's an adventure and you're gonna make a friend.So look at it as making a friend and.if it's not love at first sight,that's okay.You have a friend and who knows,maybe that friend will lead to something more.But giving yourself opportunities to let friends get in your heart is really valuable.

Karin: 50:12

Mm.

Hoyt: 50:13

That I wanted to play because I really felt like so many people could benefit themselves just by not carrying such a burden into online dating,right?It's like,no,use this as an opportunity to learn about your yourself,learn what you like,what your heart responds to and so I just thought that was beautiful.

Karin: 50:36

Oh,she put it so well.I,uh,yeah,she's very heart-centered language.She's that perspective.And you know,I,you know,I got like gushy just listening to her and I'm sure other people did.When you connect with that piece and the,the,the issue is like where you are,whatever you wanna call it,your idea,your resonance,your frequency,when you're in resistance to being open and when you're really closed,like Michael Singer wrote that book,um,untethered Soul,and it talks about this like we,we,we.People tend to close themselves off because they've been hurt or whatever.And so her advice to date,a lot of people,she's talking about that openness,like,like,never ever close your heart off cuz you're not,it's not that you're punishing the world,you're punishing yourself because like,it doesn't have to be the,the end all the relationship.You're on a journey of evolution of,of learning about yourself.And I'm like,I mean,when you're married,I mean,it's great.We all really want that lifetime partner,but you're with one person when you're dating.I mean,you could explore all these different worlds and you can date a musician,you can date an artist,you can date,I mean,you can go and you kind of get to insert yourself.It's really an an incredible adventure,and you're likely not always gonna have that much freedom.So like,Charlotte just said like,insert yourself in a way that is open,that is,yeah,like pay attention If your gut tells you there's a red flag and something's not,definitely not right for you,but if you can just find that friendship and open your heart and you,you do learn something with each person.I have found it one of the best educations and it's really,I think people don't talk about it enough.Like it's,it's a great,process of learning about the world,about yourself,about other lives that you don't get.When you finally settle in that relationship,so I say make the most of it.She gave it,she,she summed it up very,very well.Keep your heart open.

Hoyt: 52:12

Well,what a great way to,to frame that and a great way to,unfortunately to end our conversation here cuz we're about out of time,Dr.Karin.But before we go,I want you to remind everybody where they can find you online.You've got some great stuff going on online,on Instagram,and on your website and with some of the alive events that you're working on.So tell people how they can find you.

Karin: 52:35

Thank you.Yeah,my favorite thing is meeting people in person.Um,so yeah,I do have,like,I have a retreat coming up next year called Wild Wonder,but everything that I do,I create courses around.We talk about this kind of stuff in my courses.Um,my website is dr karin.com,but you have to spell it out.It's d o c t o r k a R i n,and that's my handle.Also on Instagram,I also have a YouTube channel,Dr.Kane,where I do talk about.Know it's all free a lot.I have a lot of videos,especially if you,one of the things I talk about a lot are people,we're not gonna go into it,but like the narcissistic experience and impasse,a lot of people have had those in their experiences and I,I really want you to open up your life to where you can be open to all that's waiting for you.So I've got a lot of that information on the YouTube channel as well.

Hoyt: 53:19

Well,I encourage people to go check that out and Dr.Kern,I hope you'll come back and join us again because there are just so many of these topics that are so fascinating and people are,are struggling with,right?They wanna figure this stuff out.For themselves and there is so much for them when they can do that,when they can open up and you've been such a great resource.I really appreciate your coming on today.Thank you.

Karin: 53:44

you,Hoy.I would love to come back.This is a beautiful platform and I hope that everybody grew a little bit,became more conscious because of the conversation.I.

Hoyt: 53:51

Thank you.If you're enjoying behind the swipe.You can subscribe to our weekly episode feed on apple,Spotify,or wherever you get your podcasts.And follow us on Instagram at behind the swipe podcast.Got an over40dating story.We'd love to hear it.Just go to behind the swipe.com and click on the,be a guest tab.We just might feature you on one of our upcoming episodes.I'm your host,Hoyt Prisock.Until next week.Swipe fearlessly.