Episode 28 - Narcissism
Narcissism
This week on Behind the Swipe, host Hoyt Prisock welcomes therapist Hilary Woodman, an expert in narcissistic personality disorder, for a deep dive into the complexities of narcissism in relationships. Hilary unpacks the clinical aspects of narcissism, distinguishing it from simple egocentrism, and sheds light on how these traits manifest in harmful ways within intimate relationships.
Throughout the episode, Hilary discusses the defining characteristics of narcissism, such as a marked lack of empathy and a tendency to exploit personal interactions. With a blend of professional insights and relatable examples, she explains how to spot the difference between benign self-love and malignant narcissistic behaviors. The discussion also explores the profound psychological impacts on those entangled with narcissists, highlighting the often unseen emotional and mental toll.
Listeners will find valuable guidance on identifying red flags in relationships and learn about the steps to take if they find themselves involved with a narcissist. Hilary offers advice on how to seek support, build resilience, and protect oneself from further abuse.
The episode closes with a message of hope, emphasizing that recovery and renewal are within reach for those who have suffered in narcissistic relationships. Whether you're directly affected or simply curious about this pervasive issue, this episode provides essential insights into navigating and healing from these challenging dynamics.
Join us for a compelling conversation that aims not just to inform but also to empower and inspire positive change in personal relationships.
This week’s Guest
Hilary Woodman
Lcsw
My primary speciality is working with clients who have endured Narcissistic Abuse in a relationship, parents, & adult children. Embarking on the therapy journey can be overwhelming, yet hopeful when ready to invest in yourself. I will work with you collaboratively to assist in the exploration of ways to remove uncomfortable symptoms, alleviate emotional pain, increase self awareness and promote personal growth for positive change with use of trauma therapy. I am passionate about working with individuals and couples dealing with anxiety, depression, relationship issues, Narcissistic Abuse, divorce and coparenting with a narcissist.
Narc Abuse is being recognized as one of the worst forms of abuse. I am passionate about working with clients suffering from this abuse by parents, partners or a spouse. If you’re in a relationship or parting ways with someone you suspect has Narcissism; processing emotions, setting boundaries, & learning to manage interactions can alleviate anxiety.
I will create a safe, warm, and confidential environment, which allows the client to problem solve, develop insights and resolve issues. I am empathetic and work to create comfort. The answers we are looking for can be found within and the therapeutic process will help the solutions come to the surface. Embarking on this journey takes courage & patience.
Transcript:
Episode 28 - Narcissism
===
[00:00:00] Hoyt: Welcome to this week's episode of behind the swipe. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock and today we're tackling a subject that I'll admit has always been a bit of a puzzle to me. Narcissism in relationships. You know, when we talk about narcissistic behavior. It's easy to picture a high level of self-love or someone who's a bit too into their own reflection. But the reality. Especially in the context of intimate relationships. It's far more complex and damaging.
[00:00:35] we often hear the term narcissist thrown around in casual conversation. But the true impact of being in a long-term relationship with someone who is genuinely narcissistic. That's not discussed as often.
[00:00:49] It's about more than just dealing with someone who's self-centered. It's the long-term psychological effects. The erosion of self-esteem. And often
[00:00:58] A lingering [00:01:00] trauma that can follow survivors long after the relationship has ended. Today, I'm joined by Hillary Woodman. A therapist whose mission is to lead men and women who have been subjected in previous relationships to this abuse. Into a world of hope and possibility. Together. We're going deep into what narcissism really looks like in relationships, how it manifests. And more importantly, the profound impact it can have on those entangles with a narcissistic partner.
[00:01:32] Whether you found yourself in this situation or know someone who has, or you're just curious about the topic. Today's discussion is aimed at shedding light on this complex and often misunderstood condition. So. Let's dive in.
[00:01:48]
[00:01:51] Hoyt: I am so pleased today to have Hilary Woodman with me. we're going to talk about a topic that has come up over and over again, often in the [00:02:00] show but particularly in private conversations that I've had, more often with women than with men, and we'll get into that.
[00:02:08] And that's about idea of narcissism and how toxic that can be in a relationship. And so I really want to understand that because frankly, Hilary, I'm, I am not sure that I've got really good grasp on the difference between narcissism and just Garden variety egocentrism, so I'm hoping that you can help me understand that, but hey, welcome to Behind the Swipe.
[00:02:32] I'm so
[00:02:32] Hilary: thank you. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
[00:02:36] Hoyt: So, tell me, first of all, what is narcissism and how is that defined from a professional standpoint?
[00:02:44] Hilary: So I actually wanted to make sure I had the clearest definition. It's really defined by its symptoms, but the traditional Uh, oh. Definition of narcissism is people who think highly of themselves. they want to [00:03:00] look good on the exterior. Charming is a word you hear very often with it. the number one thing I listen for is lack of empathy as part of the definitions.
[00:03:10] And like I said, what was interesting to me this morning was when I Googled it just out of curiosity to see if anything had changed because according to the psychological manual that The Diagnostic and Statistical Psychology, DSM. there's ten criteria that define narcissistic personality disorder and you have to meet 50 percent of those.
[00:03:35] The ones that I found Which I talk about often with peers, there's 20 listed, which makes sense. And what I've always said, there's more than what's on the, you know, in the DSM
[00:03:48] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:03:49] Hilary: the criteria. It's one of the hardest things to diagnose because, therapists are unlikely to give it a clear diagnosis.
[00:03:58] You need to be tested. [00:04:00] People are reluctant because narcissists are litigious. So to get a true diagnosis and to be able to call it narcissistic personality disorder, it has to have testing to make it valid.
[00:04:14] Hoyt: that makes perfect sense. I can see that someone who actually has these tendencies and characteristics is probably not voluntarily coming in for an evaluation, or therapy. Is that true?
[00:04:31] Hilary: It's very true. It's actually usually forced upon them by a family member. they don't want to go for therapy. A lot of couples come to me. usually a female will come to me asking to come with a husband and I won't do it long term because it's counterproductive. It's toxic to the woman.
[00:04:50] they lie in therapy, they project in therapy and I experienced it firsthand so I know what that's [00:05:00] like and I'm honest with people who call me and I'll tell them I'll do a session with them together. One apart and one together again with my conclusion. I presume it is that without an official diagnosis,
[00:05:16] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:05:17] Hilary: and I will see the victim afterwards,
[00:05:19] Hoyt: Uh huh. I
[00:05:20] Hilary: if they're, if they're ready, but a lot of times people are not ready at that point.
[00:05:25] So, to go back to your question, the definition is, It's people who lack empathy. They come across as dynamic. Charming is a buzzword I listen for. I have certain words I listen for. They project everything onto the victim. Their anger. They're very blaming. They take no responsibility for the problems they cause and blame the victim.
[00:05:50] they gaslight you. They make you feel like you're crazy. Like you're the one that's crazy. And even in the early books I read when I studied this to the [00:06:00] point of no, I studied everything out there. I could find book wise and women go to mental institutions cause they're made so crazy by the narcissist
[00:06:10] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:06:11] Hilary: that they feel like they are the ones that are crazy is the word they use.
[00:06:15] Hoyt: And so that's the classic gaslighting then, right?
[00:06:19] Hilary: Yes. Yes.
[00:06:20] Hoyt: no, what you're seeing, that's not what happened. That's not the way it is. You're not seeing it correctly, right?
[00:06:27] Hilary: Right. I have examples of it from my ex husband. I have examples of it from a previous relationship I had where I was like, wait a minute, that's not the way it happened. And they would insist that it was the way it happened. And I felt crazy. I was like, how could this be?
[00:06:46] Like, I know it happened this way and they would swear it didn't.
[00:06:51] Hoyt: Well, I want to ask you about your personal experience with this, because you're, Hilary, really one of the, few. Therapist that [00:07:00] really focuses in on this particular, complication and really primarily for women. but I'm curious about this and this is where my lack of real understanding comes in is, all right, I want to understand the difference between benign narcissism and malignant narcissism.
[00:07:22] Narcissism, so often people who come across as highly self confident people will exhibit some of these traits. Am I right here?
[00:07:35] Hilary: Absolutely. Yes.
[00:07:37] Hoyt: but they will also, have the ability to incorporate a theory of mind where they really can understand how what they're doing is impacting you. And so it says, okay, well, That's maybe egocentrism, it's maybe not, classic narcissism.
[00:07:55] So I'm just trying to wrap my head around what really is that difference
[00:07:59] Hilary: So, [00:08:00] with narcissism, There is something in the brain is altered between early childhood, to late teens, early twenties, where your brain is altered, if you look up an MRI of a typical brain versus a narcissistic brain, It looks visually different, and it happens with overindulgence of kids, and it is on the rise.
[00:08:23] It's just ignoring, or that doting mother who does everything for their child, like they do their laundry till they're late teens and going to college, they're cleaning up their dishes after dinner, they're cooking for them, they never get said no to. When parents aren't setting limits and boundaries with them, they grow up
[00:08:45] Hoyt: Fosters that.
[00:08:47] Hilary: the entitlement, which leads often to narcissism. And it's on a scale, there's characteristics, then there's, you know, where you're moving into full blown narcissism, and then [00:09:00] past narcissism is a sociopath, and then a psychopath. So there are some What appears to be a sociopathic tendency, sometimes with
[00:09:11] Hoyt: so Hillary, one of the things that, I hear way more commonly than I would have expected to is women talking about my ex being a narcissist and men talking about their ex being bipolar,
[00:09:29] Hilary: narcissism. Not, you're right, bipolar, borderline. I just had this conversation with a client, borderline and bipolar are the number one things that a narcissist will call their significant other spouse, former relationship. Oh, they were bipolar. They have borderline,
[00:09:45] So, you know, but it is the most common thing you're going to hear.
[00:09:49] Hoyt: So when you hear that as often as I do, it makes me wonder how common is this? How prominent in society is a narcissistic personality [00:10:00] disorder?
[00:10:00] Hilary: I was looking up percentages and I couldn't find an exact percentage. I know the percentage of male versus female. So there for, I would say it's 65 to 70 percent, even as high as 80 in some statistics I saw of men. Women are less likely to be narcissistic. We're in the 20 percent to 25, 30 percent women are the most lethal of all narcissists.
[00:10:29] They are the most toxic. They are the most lethal. Whereas men make up the majority, women make up with toxicity.
[00:10:37] Hoyt: let's talk about that behavior in women because I was really curious about that. You don't really feel like you encounter very many women that really do have narcissistic personality disorder, but you're saying when they do, they've got it big time.
[00:10:54] Hilary: like big time where I've heard of women accusing men of having sexually abused their [00:11:00] children when they have not, calling their company to report that they've sexually abused the children. Destroying the male's life, basically. His career, his reputation, um, that's probably the worst I've heard, but it can go on from there.
[00:11:16] They are evil, they are so egocentric that a mother will, you know, Run the house, and usually the setup is, if a mother has narcissism with children, the father is usually very empathetic, but caters to the woman to defuse any stress or tension in the house. But the kids see this as early as 8, 9 years old, and as adolescence approaches, unless they're bought off by the parent that's narcissistic, kids see it.
[00:11:51] They see, start seeing the patterns. They see it with the father catering to the mother. And the longer a male stays, the more broken and submissive he [00:12:00] becomes to this woman.
[00:12:01] that's what I've seen with women who have narcissism. It's a very, very, I see if, I see men as well, and they're usually the kindest, most, the ones who are separated, especially, most empathetic, fabulous fathers, and are tormented by these women.
[00:12:19] Hoyt: So let me ask youabout, people who suspect that they're in a relationship with a narcissistic partner. you talked about some of the ways that they can begin to recognize that and there are some excellent resources so if you think this is going on in your existing relationship, where do you go to figure this out?
[00:12:40] It's not like you can, talk to a buddy or a friend, right?
[00:12:45] Hilary: Well, actually, more and more people know about it. because there's more awareness, people are going to friends and friends do see it often. But sometimes people are told, oh, you're crazy. That's not the case. some people, We'll continue in the [00:13:00] relationship, hoping they can change that person.
[00:13:02] But the internet is flooded with videos. I'm, I'm very partial to Dr. Romani. Romani is. R A M A N I. And she's all over the internet. She's actually, I would say the most famous person involved in the research and understanding of narcissism and has brought the most attention to it in recent years.
[00:13:23] Hoyt: And what's the name of her book, if people are looking for the book?
[00:13:25] Hilary: has multiple books. Her latest book is called It's Not You Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. So I have my clients read it. Out of the Fog is another book I like because it's very easy to understand, and it pulls a very comprehensive understanding.
[00:13:43] there's a whole vocabulary list that goes with narcissism. Like gray rock, which means you have very simplistic talking to them. Narcissists love to email and message long, long, long diatribes. And [00:14:00] one way to stop it is to just answer very simply with yes or no, to not respond, that's gray rocking, to not respond or to give five words or less.
[00:14:10] If you want to stop the abuse, because it's usually a very abusive diatribe of horrible things that you've done, name calling, reminders of past things that they think you've done. the emails can be some of the worst that you've ever seen. And when I say long, long, like you've never believed, couldn't even imagine.
[00:14:29] It's a
[00:14:30] Hoyt: Like a rant, huh?
[00:14:31] Hilary: rant. That's what they do. Blaming you for things from the past that you didn't do. It's awful.
[00:14:39] Hoyt: So, if you suspect this in your relationship, or now you know that this is the real, a characteristic of the relationship that you're in, Is it fixable?
[00:14:49] Hilary: It's not fixable. There's a lot of people who claim they can fix it. I google it usually at least once a month to see who's claiming they can fix it. I have discussed this. [00:15:00] With my own therapist who specializes in it with peers who have specialized in it. And we all agree it is not treatable. I've never seen one treated.
[00:15:12] If they are treatable or if they're self aware that they think they're a narcissist, they're usually not.
[00:15:18] Hoyt: yeah, yeah. That makes
[00:15:20] sense,
[00:15:20] Hilary: and I tell them that I tell people when they come to me, they're like, I think I'm a narcissist. I always say to them right off the bat, if you think you're a narcissist, you're probably not. And that's what the general rule of thumb is, is if you think it, It's not likely possible.
[00:15:34] Hoyt: Well, that's a pretty darn good shortcut
[00:15:36] Hilary: It is,
[00:15:38] Hoyt: essentially your message to people who are in this is, save yourself. Right?
[00:15:44] Hilary: you know, I say it save yourself. It's not so simple though, because once people are in it, they have a very addictive quality, I had a friend call one of my exes. the cancer because you're drawn back to them. [00:16:00] I'm guilty of it with one of my ex boyfriends. I was so drawn into him and had such strong feelings for him.
[00:16:06] What you're doing is you're always waiting for the good. I went back more times than I care to admit. Years later, I would not do the same thing again. I would leave and leave for good. But it takes people years to get there,
[00:16:23] Hoyt: And for reasons that are actually pretty easy to understand, either you believe it to be fictional or you believe that you're bringing some of this on yourself, right?
[00:16:34] Hilary: right? Or that you could change them
[00:16:36] Hoyt: Yeah. Which is really common, right?
[00:16:39] Hilary: Yeah. So common in any relationship, you think you're going to change their behavior and you're not, but it literally takes people years. I call it the get it factor, like the light bulb moment where you get, there's no hope. It's like one of the hardest things you could tell a client or a person you're talking to that there's no hope.
[00:16:59] And I could [00:17:00] tell usually if somebody's ready to come to therapy from doing this, as long as I have at this point, if they're not ready, they're not going to be a good candidate for therapy. Sometimes, and I've had clients say to me, I don't think I'm quite ready to leave the situation. But there's also people who choose to stay with them and learn to cope with the narcissism.
[00:17:20] Hoyt: Uh huh. Uh huh. Because as painful as it is, and as abusive as it is, uh, you know, if they perceive the alternative to be worse than their current reality, then they will tend to stay.
[00:17:35] Hilary: they will stay. And, It's a very hard dating world out there right now. And when people find somebody, they want to hold on.
[00:17:44] Hoyt: I'm curious, Hillary, why are women attracted to in the first place, to people who are prone to narcissistic personality disorder.
[00:17:55] Hilary: It's such a great question. So in many cases,[00:18:00] you have a parent that has narcissism and I would say 95 percent of my clients. can trace it back to a parent pretty quickly. I have clients who sometimes a year into therapy will say, you're right. I think my father is a narcissist.
[00:18:15] They don't see it until we really deep dive into things, but it's rare that I see a case where it's not directly coming from a parent. And what you're looking for what's familiar to you and narcissism becomes a familiar thing to you and what's comfortable. So you always seek out what's comfortable within your family and your partner.
[00:18:38] So as awful as it is, you still seek it out and you're drawn to them. I work with clients on dating often, and I talk about doing the opposite. If you're attracted to a narcissist, try to, Look for them because my goal with my clients is that they can see it in people like I see it in people and my [00:19:00] clients and it's not a short treatment It does take time But I have clients who are there the ones who stick it out for the long haul and many of them do They can see it in people quickly as well They start to notice the signs and symptoms and Once you see narcissism in people you can't unsee it
[00:19:19] Hoyt: Well,that does feel true to me, oftentimes women, even who recognize that the relationship that they're in has these characteristics, when they leave that relationship, they step in the same hole again. so tell me about that phenomenon.
[00:19:37] Hilary: I have women come to me at 60, 70, who have never done therapy, who have never done a deep dive into their history, to understand their history, to talk about the trauma related to it, growing up with a narcissistic parent, until they go to therapy to do something to make it stop and work to I mean, it's work [00:20:00] because you're doing the opposite of what your instinct is.
[00:20:03] You're going to step right back into it. I did it twice after I was divorced
[00:20:08] and I stepped in the same hole as well, so you've got personal experience with this, huh?
[00:20:13] I think the only way you can treat narcissism is to have personal experience with it. Like the people that write the books about it. And when I first started studying this, it was six or seven years ago. And I, like I said, studied everything out there. There's probably A bazillion more books out there.
[00:20:31] I'm exaggerating, but you know, I still stepped into it. I had a five year relationship that was on and off for five years. I can't even count how many times I went back and the dysfunction of it. Um, and until I really, my light bulb moment went off. I ended it, but in between the breakups of that relationship, I was in a two year relationship.
[00:20:56] And I can't say a hundred percent he was a narcissist. I think he had [00:21:00] maybe more borderline, but there was some narcissism there for sure.
[00:21:05] Hoyt: Uh
[00:21:05] Hilary: And after I got out of those relationships, It was really hard for me. It was emotionally devastating, but I also started looking for partners that had empathy that showed different signs and characteristics than what I was.
[00:21:21] Jumping into what was familiar because of my own past with my family.
[00:21:26] Hoyt: it seems like there are, often, aspects Of narcissists that are legitimately attractive, right? people are drawn to people with, high levels of self-confidence, right? People are drawn to what they perceive to be power, right?
[00:21:46] Hilary: Yes.
[00:21:47] Hoyt: So is that, typically what attracts people to.
[00:21:51] these kinds of relationships early on.
[00:21:54] Hilary: it's that it's also that family history of that familiar feeling of [00:22:00] being in your family. I'm reading a book. It's called
[00:22:03] It's in your family. And it's about narcissistic toxic families, more toxic families in general. But, people are always drawn back to the familiarity of it. That's what the draw is like. You're, I mean, and I'm not, I'm going to be so honest here. I'm always initially drawn to a narcissist, but I see what there is and I'm quick to learn
[00:22:26] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:22:27] Hilary: and I divert myself away.
[00:22:31] Hoyt: So when you see the flame, you know it hurts, and so you pull away. Uh
[00:22:35] Hilary: Yeah, right. I've had so much trauma from my own family and from my, More of my divorce is where my trauma came from. The 12 years post marriage. I don't ever want to be in a relationship like that again. Like, but, but that is what I hear all the time from clients too. Like, how do you stop? they asked me, how do you stop [00:23:00] becoming so attracted to these people?
[00:23:02] I'm like, it's your instinct and you're going to have to do the opposite. Like, you may not be wowed by this person, but I always say, give it two or three dates. If by the second date, you're like, no way, you're There's nothing I like about this person, but I, I explained to them, love is not instantaneous.
[00:23:20] You need to date, you need to see and fall in love with this person, because they may be somebody you can fall in love with. I have clients who've remarried empathetic people, so it's possible.
[00:23:32] Hoyt: Hillary, let's talk about what kind of personal work women in particular can do, whether they're just out of that or they feel like they're in a relationship like that. I mean, a big part of this is recontextualizing these interactions for yourself. So, research that, put a name to it, right?
[00:23:56] Put a label on it that kind of helps you [00:24:00] shortcut. But if it's going to be the kind of thing where you say, well, I have to either endure this, I'm not going to be able to get out of this right away, how do you counsel people on taking care of themselves even when they're in these relationships?
[00:24:17] Hilary: one thing that I really stressed in the beginning, to clients, I usually review in the first session or second session. One thing is journaling is a very important part of it. They're. In Dr. Romani's new book, she reports that writing it out is the best thing for your brain. If you're ruminating about things, like obsessively thinking about them, have somebody to talk to so you can fall into the rumination because the only way rumination is going to end is if you continue to talk about it until you're sick of it.
[00:24:52] good friends who understand it. I also do a group for my clients on Wednesday nights, which has been remarkable to [00:25:00] get that validation. They help each other in the group. I say very little unless they need me. I watch the interactions and intervene as necessary, but, you know, joining a group, which is a hard thing to find.
[00:25:13] I'm going to be starting another one pretty soon for external clients. or clients who have other therapists,
[00:25:20] but a group therapy is highly recommended. Dr. Romani has, um, a page you can join and she does things within her website and I'm pretty sure she has groups, if not some of the other. There's like famous authors within narcissism that I'm familiar with that have groups.
[00:25:38] I think Carol McBride K A R Y L McBride. She writes a book about, um, it's called, Will I Ever Be Good Enough? And it's about mothers and daughters
[00:25:49] Hoyt: Uh huh. Uh huh.
[00:25:51] Hilary: And she has a great webpage. And from my understanding, if you join her site, there is also like groups that you [00:26:00] can join. Meetup has groups. I have clients who've looked at Meetup too.
[00:26:05] So groups are a great way to talk about it. But really reading books is my main
[00:26:11] Hoyt: Uh huh. And I guess being just able to hear that you're not alone in this is so valuable.
[00:26:18] Hilary: It's so valuable and so powerful and validating.
[00:26:21] It's been incredible. And the way they interact because they're all empathetic people, so they all have empathy for each other, and they feel validated. but the tools I recommend are the journaling. finding supportive friends, reading books rather than looking at YouTube videos
[00:26:38] And I'd rather them, I watch that as a trend. People who watch the YouTube videos don't have as clear of an understanding as reading books, like books are more comprehensive. So I say you can watch the YouTube videos, but don't read them. Read, read about it so you can absorb it. Do audible if you need to, but read, read about it.
[00:26:57] Cause it's going to give you a clearer [00:27:00] picture of what you're dealing with.
[00:27:02] Hoyt: that's a great analysis, Hilary. I really appreciate that. it's probably a good time for us to take a quick break and when we come back in the second half of the show, I want to talk about a couple of things. One is, I, I want to talk about, um, Uh, interventions. And then I want to talk about your advice for women who have endured relationships like this and their experience in getting back into the dating world.
[00:27:30] And we'll do that when we come back from this short break.
[00:27:34]
[00:27:37] Hoyt: If you're enjoying this episode of behind the swipe. Share the love.
[00:27:41] Forward this episode to your friends and colleagues that you think might enjoy it. If you haven't already done. So be sure to follow us on Instagram at behind the swipe podcast and on Facebook at behind this white. If you already do. You'll probably notice some reels and stories for the next few [00:28:00] days With clips from the best moments of this episode.
[00:28:03] you can help share those more broadly as well by liking and sharing the clips in your feed as well. It helps us get this important topic out more broadly to others, just like you. As always, we appreciate your support and encouragement. Now. Let's get back to our fascinating conversation.
[00:28:26] Hilary:
[00:28:26] Hoyt: I am back here with Hilary Woodman . Hilary is a therapist here in the Atlanta area that specializes in narcissistic personality disorder, and particularly the effect that it has on people. in relationships. welcome back, Hilary. Thank you
[00:28:44] for joining us today. This has been so fascinating. Before we get back into the topic at hand though, tell people about your practice and how you work with people here in Atlanta.
[00:28:56] Hilary: I specialize and primarily see clients who are dealing with [00:29:00] narcissistic abuse. I primarily see individuals.
[00:29:03] I do run a group on Wednesday evenings for my clients, but we'll be expanding that to clients that are seeing other therapists, but having a group available for people who've been dealing with narcissistic abuse.
[00:29:17] Hoyt: so where do people go to find out about your practice online?
[00:29:22] Hilary: Psychology Today is the main place where I advertise. I've, I'm not tech savvy, so a website hasn't come into the picture yet, I've started the process a few times, but have stayed pretty, you know, busy. I, I, I like to stay busy. I like to work with my clients. I return every phone call or email back to everybody because I believe everybody deserves to be heard.
[00:29:49] And that's one of my things I have on psychology today is I do make sure, because this is a severe form of abuse. And I know therapists are inundated right [00:30:00] now and it's hard to get back to everybody, but I do make sure everyone is heard.
[00:30:05] Hoyt: Well, I, I appreciate that. So, so people can find you on the Psychology Today
[00:30:10] Hilary: Yes,
[00:30:11] Hoyt: it's Hillary with one L, right?
[00:30:14] Hilary: with one L and it's wood, man. And I'm an LCSW, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker.
[00:30:20] Hoyt: All right, Hillary, let's get back into this topic. One of the things that I've noticed from time to time is that a woman who's in one of these relationships oftentimes is telling themselves a different story. they're creating these backstories that rationalize this abuse and behavior
[00:30:42] Hilary: Yes, that's very common.
[00:30:45] Hoyt: and equally as often, their close friends see it before they put a name to it, right?
[00:30:53] Hilary: Yes, very often.
[00:30:55] Hoyt: So what I want to know is if you have a friend and you [00:31:00] see them enduring this kind of behavior, how do you approach that subject? What would your advice be for how a friend can approach someone who is enduring this abuse?
[00:31:14] Hilary: You know, I think it's something you have to do very gently. I had a very good friend who, was entering into a relationship for the second time, and I saw the signs of narcissism quickly. And when I said it, She wasn't happy about hearing it and disagreed with me.
[00:31:34] You know, there's a fine line They're seeing between being on the spectrum and narcissism a lot of they share a lot of similarities But there are differences and I said, I really think it's more Narcissism than it is being on the spectrum and I always listened and for years She was in limbo about it, but didn't really want to hear.
[00:31:57] She wasn't happy when I said narcissism. [00:32:00] And then it took, I think, two and a half years. And I finally said, I don't care if you're mad at me. and don't talk to me ever again, but you're in a relationship with a narcissist. I see it when I hear you talk about it, and I just want you to be treated better, to be loved, to be truly loved.
[00:32:21] Narcissists are not capable of true love,
[00:32:24] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:32:25] Hilary: so they mimic what love looks like, but they're not able to really truly love.
[00:32:30] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:32:31] Hilary: And she said to me, you're right. He is, I think, a narcissist. So you have to be very careful. You know, people will say they hear it from their friends, but they're not ready to accept it.
[00:32:43] Hoyt: Sure. Yeah, I mean, because oftentimes people will endure this for years and years before they
[00:32:49] Hilary: Years and years and years. Yes. So they will put up with it because they're always hoping for that like happy moment. Narcissists [00:33:00] love to, it's called love bombing.
[00:33:01] Hoyt: I was going to ask you about that, because that is also one of the characteristics, isn't it? Which is counterintuitive to what you would think of as abusive.
[00:33:11] Hilary: Right. So what they do is they love bomb you, meaning they inundate you with kind words and great dates and gifts. And telling you one of my ex boyfriends told me he loved me after three weeks and I was like, oh, you know, I loved hearing that. And, um, so they love bomb you and they go through different periods where they'll do that.
[00:33:36] and then they'll stop. So often, sometimes they'll do it till they move in with you, and then their mask comes down and they start displaying the abusive behaviors. They also look for people who are empathetic. people with narcissism love people who are empathetic, so they look for that. They're like magnets to each other, and empath looks to take care of [00:34:00] somebody, and narcissists love being taken care of.
[00:34:03] And then they'll have different periods and love bombing comes out in different ways. Men and women can love bomb their children. It can happen in any way, but often in the beginning stages of dating, you'll see a lot of love bombing
[00:34:18] Hoyt: So what does the narcissist get out of these relationships? You would think that they would sense that this is not aligned with whatever they perceive that they want. in a relationship. But they're never the ones to leave, are they?
[00:34:33] Hilary: they, they do leave sometimes they discard They will wait until they're found out to discard you. Once you figure out that they're a narcissist, people generally confront them that are with them will say, I, I've learned you're a narcissist, the worst thing you can do because that's when they're going to get rid of you and start abusing you to the max.
[00:34:56] That's when they're like, when they know they're found [00:35:00] out, that's, When you should really run for
[00:35:04] Hoyt: because it's never gonna get any better after that, right? Right,
[00:35:08] Hilary: and it's never really going to get any better in general, but they are lethal once they find out that you know the truth about them. I have clients going through it now who've confronted the narcissist and One of them in particular is being actively discarded, and it's so painful to watch but she still has to leave on her time.
[00:35:29] She, just because I say it's toxic, doesn't mean she's still going to leave.
[00:35:35] Hoyt: right. Everybody's got a tipping point there that they have to kind of get to on their own, don't they? Before they say, no, this is over, I've got to save myself.
[00:35:46] Hilary: They do get to a tipping point. Some people are so scared of the aftermath of leaving a narcissist that if they leave the narcissist the repercussions are so grave and they do will threaten to destroy [00:36:00] you. That's their goal in their mind is to destroy you. If you leave them, there's no That's it.
[00:36:06] The war is on.
[00:36:08] Hoyt: Yeah, that's sad. That's very sad.
[00:36:11] Hilary: It is very sad. It's like you're held captive by this person. And from what I understand, once a narcissist has you, they believe they own you for their life.
[00:36:20] Hoyt: You become a piece of property, essentially, in their minds. Since they're not really capable of true love, right?
[00:36:27] Hilary: Exactly. Well, exactly. You're there to feed their ego, to dote on them, to make them look good. They often like women who make them look good, that are intelligent. Like my relationships that I've talked about. He talked a lot about me having a master's degree in the beginning and how he loved that. And because he has a smart.
[00:36:52] Intelligent girlfriend, you know, so it made him look good and I hear that from clients all the time. either the women are the breadwinners, [00:37:00] the empath, and they're supporting the men or the men are the CEOs of companies, actors, doctors, lawyers, impressive businessmen, and then they use the money to, control.
[00:37:16] So you see it, it's either extreme.
[00:37:19] Hoyt: That's fascinating. All right, so let's shift gears, Hillary, into, let's say that, um, a woman, or a man, for that matter, has recognized that they've been in this relationship and they said enough, they read a lot about it, they perhaps engage in therapy to, to deal with it. And they come to a point in time when they're ready to look for a different romantic relationship.
[00:37:48] so they're starting to date. But as we've talked about, there are these tendencies to be attracted to the same kind of people, and often the person who has these [00:38:00] narcissistic tendencies will be able to disguise that early on in the relationship. Right. so let's talk about some specific advice that you give women or men who are coming back into the dating world after, ending a relationship with a narcissist.
[00:38:22] Hilary: Okay. I'm a firm believer, obviously, in therapy. I truly, I see women, in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, some who have been dealing with this and stuffed down all the pain and not wanting to face what they've known. They're seeing it and seeing it and they stuffed down that pain and, you know, don't want to deal with figuring out what's wrong.
[00:38:47] I have a few clients in their 60s, early 70s who come to me and they're like, I'm ready to explode because I haven't dealt with this. My father was brutal, brutally abusive. [00:39:00] And they come until you come for, I think, Psychoanalytic therapy, you know, um, solution focus and most importantly cognitive behavioral because their self esteem is destroyed after dating or being married to a narcissist.
[00:39:16] Their goal is to destroy you. So they break you down to, uh, A puddle of like the poorest self image, the name call you, they tell you terrible things. They'll bring up past things you've told them in confidence and blame you for them. so. When they're going back in the dating world, I always say you need to look for the opposite of what you've been attracted to.
[00:39:42] And if you know the signs of narcissism, run fast, run in the beginning. And sometimes people can't run cause they don't really, they haven't gone through the healing and healing takes years, and people sometimes don't even know they're doing it. They're doing it. They're going back into the [00:40:00] dating world and dating.
[00:40:03] The same people, because they don't realize they're doing it.
[00:40:06] Hoyt: Uh huh. Uh huh.
[00:40:07] Hilary: People are in shock when they realize that this is what it is. And they also have a lot of self blame about it. They blame themselves for dating these people. Well, why do I do it? What's wrong with me? And usually there's a link to their past.
[00:40:24] It's usually generational at this point, they're seeing it. You know, the research is showing that it's generational. I have clients who can trace it back to great grandparents, where there was abuse to the woman,
[00:40:38] um, in the family, in different forms sometimes, but it does get traced back with grandparents even,
[00:40:46] Hoyt: Uh
[00:40:46] Hilary: and great grandparents.
[00:40:48] So I say, have a friend that understands it as well. Really, therapy is the best thing you can do with somebody who specializes in it. Since I've been doing this, there are more [00:41:00] people out there who do it. But look, specifically for somebody who treats narcissistic abuse,
[00:41:05] so before we get into the specifics, I want to ask you about in this scenario where somebody's coming back into the dating world for the first time, feels to me as if they can be a little gun shy, like withholding. early in relationships, which ultimately stands a chance of undermining a potential relationship, If they're going to stand back and observe and not engage, not be vulnerable in the relationship, that can send the wrong signal to someone who would otherwise be the right person for you, right?
[00:41:46] Yes, there's a lot of trust issues and lack of vulnerability because of it. I mean, I have my own trust issues. I'm very cautious and you do need to trust in today's dating [00:42:00] world. It's hard to trust in today's dating world, really. And, um, a narcissist sees that as more of a challenge to break down and they're gonna try To love bomb you to the point where you trust them and can't see what they're hiding.
[00:42:18] Hoyt: So let's talk about the specific things that people can do both before you begin dating. So you're, you're, you're in the swiping world, let's say. What, what kind of things can you detect as a potential red flag in a. in a profile and how somebody presents themselves on online that would, raise your level of awareness to say, Oh, maybe this person is a narcissist
[00:42:49] Hilary: I'm really good at it when I see it. So, I'm trying to think exactly what things I look for. If they're talking about themselves the whole time and what [00:43:00] they need is one thing. If it's all about their needs and has nothing to do about what they want to give to somebody or what they're looking for as a mutual relationship, you know, I need the person to be this.
[00:43:13] I need the person to be that.
[00:43:16] If they just generally look like an asshole, if they're looking for sex off the bat, if they say they're looking to be in love and they're over exaggerate how much they want to be in love and, how doting they are. So it's like the opposite, like they focus on themselves or how wonderful they are, how great they are at romancing people.
[00:43:41] And, you know, look, guys love to boast about how great they are in bed and, you know, Those are red flags to run away for narcissism and just in general, I say, you know, if they can have a conversation with you, if they never ask you questions about yourself, like [00:44:00] I've had, like, if I have a conversation now, and they don't ask me one question, When there's five exchanges, I'm out.
[00:44:09] You know, I could talk it up sometimes to nerves, but at the same time, if you can think of one question to ask me, and it's so common in the dating world where you, Nobody asks you a question.
[00:44:20] Hoyt: so is there a correlation between narcissism and a lack of curiosity? about other people?
[00:44:27] Hilary: Oh yeah, it's all about them. It's like that core. I don't know, I always go to the smurfs from my generation. And the vanity smurf who like love to look in the water. And it comes from the story, it's called Narcissist. It's a mythological story about how he was obsessed with looking at himself in the water to see his own reflection because he loved himself, you know?
[00:44:53] So like, it does stem from that. but narcissists actually are the most self loathing people. [00:45:00] out there. They truly don't like themselves. They despise themselves. And they put on this performance that they love themselves, that they are the greatest thing in the world.
[00:45:12] But when people get to know them, especially in a relationship, they start to see their insecurities and that's how they sometimes get found out. Or they also get Overly attended to. They're loved more. Oh, I'll take care of you. I can make it better. I'm so sorry you have such poor self esteem. Let's make it better.
[00:45:33] While they're being abused at the same time.
[00:45:36] Hoyt: So, Hilary, we talked about like the red flags in profiles and in early text center engagements about not asking questions and about focusing on here's what I need out of a relationship and a profile. That would be, you would suggest a red flag to say, stay away, right?
[00:45:56] Move, move away. What are the green flags? Like [00:46:00] what do you look for positively in a profile that can give you some assurance that you're probably not
[00:46:11] Hilary: I always say there's no guarantees, but green flags to me are when men write their profiles to me, green flags are people who are, like, will give a balance of what they're looking for and what they want to give to somebody.
[00:46:27] Words like communication, Caring for each other. spending time together. those are green flags to me. Somebody who can have somebody attractive to me and somebody who is a green light is somebody who could reciprocate conversation in a text exchange. that's basic, in our generation. Men who want to call me rather than continue on with texting have a real conversation, but I love that men over 50 want to have a conversation to talk to me to see if we have a [00:47:00] good rapport, you know, and I can notice signs, even from talking to them on the phone, I could tell if they're nervous, I could tell if they're genuinely interested in me.
[00:47:10] I could ask questions for eternity. So, I ask them questions, but I expect them to ask original questions, too. And I say original, not, what about you, all the time.
[00:47:21] Hoyt: Right, That makes sense. So we talked, Hilary, about, the profile. So the very early stages of making sure that you're not stepping in that same hole with a narcissist, or even for the first time. But you also made an interesting point in the first half of the show when you talked about how for a narcissist, oftentimes it takes time for them to reveal their true selves.
[00:47:48] So what signals do you look for in your second and third date that should be warning flags for you?
[00:47:58] Hilary: Saying I love you, [00:48:00] quickly, is one thing, or being overly into you. Texting you all the time. I have a friend we call texting the devil because you don't really, truly interpret what someone's saying with texting, but also over texting.
[00:48:16] Hoyt: what I'm trying to look for is that clearly there's a spectrum of talent with a narcissist, right,
[00:48:23] Hilary: Mm hmm.
[00:48:24] Hoyt: and some of them can be extremely good
[00:48:27] Hilary: Yeah
[00:48:28] Hoyt: disguising that Until you feel like you're now in a committed relationship and then you start to discover
[00:48:37] Hilary: more and more
[00:48:38] Hoyt: more and more.
[00:48:39] And then there are the people out there who bumble their way through it and just don't know enough to even disguise it very well. Those are easier to pick off, right?
[00:48:48] Hilary: Oh, yeah, they're easier I would say also if you're suspicious of what they're doing outside of your time like often I haven't said this narcissists need multiple sources of [00:49:00] supply so they're notorious for cheating they're notorious for talking to people in their past, so if you're noticing that they're looking for other resources to feed their ego and You question them like, Oh, what did you do last night?
[00:49:17] And they're fumbling for an answer. Or they're like, Oh, I hung out with friends there's obvious lying going on. they're great liars. So they lie and tell you they're doing something different. Um, I had a relationship.
[00:49:31] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:49:32] Hilary: My first relationship, one night I was like, we talked multiple times a day.
[00:49:36] I couldn't get in touch with him. And then I received an email from his ex girlfriend that she was with him. And I was like, this is too much drama. Like it was the beginning of the end of our first year together. and he wouldn't stop. Like he just wouldn't stop.
[00:49:53] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:49:54] Hilary: And so when I asked him to, he said, no, I still, I'm going to talk to her, which was like, [00:50:00] blatant disrespect.
[00:50:00] Right. But I think those are some things you can look for is how they're spending their time, how they're treating you, if they disappear for a while and come back. if they're not as attentive at times, they're overly attentive, then they're not attentive. If they start talking about the future a lot.
[00:50:22] That's a red flag.
[00:50:23] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:50:24] Hilary: Big time. If they're talking about like marriage or moving in together, those are red flags. Like run away.
[00:50:32] Hoyt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really early on. That clearly is there's something else going on, because that's not a natural progression, right?
[00:50:39] Hilary: not. It's slow and steady wins the race is what I always say to my clients. Take it slow. I mean you could usually see their ego Like if they have a big job and they're boasting about their job, and I had one client It's coming back to me now. She is dating a security person from somebody very [00:51:00] famous
[00:51:00] Hoyt: Uh huh.
[00:51:01] Hilary: And it took her three dates and she was like, uh, uh, like she saw the ego.
[00:51:07] She started to see him boasting about all the great things he was doing and became disinterested in talking about her at all.
[00:51:16] Hoyt: Uh
[00:51:17] Hilary: And he was like, narcissist. And I was like, he probably has some characteristics of it or even greater than that.
[00:51:26] Hoyt: Uh
[00:51:26] Hilary: she did run because it was the third date. And she was like, she did do something against her gut.
[00:51:32] And then she was like, biggest mistake. And she's like, that was a great, and I say they're learning experiences to
[00:51:38] Hoyt: it seems like there's probably a tell in there, Hilary, somewhere when the way that narcissists talk about their previous relationships.
[00:51:47] Hilary: I'm glad you brought that up. That is a telltale sign. If they start talking about their past partners as being crazy, that they. had borderline personality as a common diagnosis. They give [00:52:00] their previous partners that they're bipolar.
[00:52:03] They're so quick to judge other people without seeing their own flaws and that's a common problem in dating in general.
[00:52:10] Hoyt: Well, for narcissists, they're incapable of accepting any real self criticism, right? Uh
[00:52:16] Hilary: hate being criticized. It's one of the worst things for them. They, it's called a narcissistic injury. They feel so wounded when they're criticized, they can't take it. It's like the worst thing in the world for them. So when you start criticizing them. And doing things like that, it signals that you're figuring things out too,
[00:52:37] but they can't take it and they won't stay in that relationship long.
[00:52:41] Hoyt: So Hilary, as we wrap this up here, let's end on a hopeful note here. So, you know, many, many women come to you and men too who may feel kind of hopeless when they're in the early stages of recognizing this and making a [00:53:00] break, but there is another side.
[00:53:02] How do you help them understand that there's spring grass on the other side of that mountain?
[00:53:09] Hilary: You know, there is green grass. It's just learning how to find it. I always say to them, I'm an example of somebody who's come out the other side. Yes, I am single. Yes, I, I, I may have loved two narcissists. Post divorce or I air quote, narcissists. And I won't deny the fun and good times I did have with them.
[00:53:33] Despite the toxicity, I still don't, it's never worth it though. It is not worth it, but I've come to the other side of the abuse. I've come to the other side and enjoy life with my friends. I've seen who my true friends are and who are there for me. And I'm happy at this point, You do have some triggers of trauma, but there is hope and there are good people out there.
[00:53:56] I have clients who've met amazing men [00:54:00] who are empathetic and kind and treat them like a partner. I have good friends who have, you know, my landlord
[00:54:09] Hoyt: Uh huh,
[00:54:10] Hilary: met somebody soon after her divorce, who is an incredible guy and she's happy and she sees the other side. She was feeling sad and hopeless, and then she met somebody who treats her so well, is interested in her, loves to joke around with her, takes her out to do fun things,
[00:54:33] So seeing that is always to me like a hopeful sign, that there are good men out there and I see good men out there as clients
[00:54:43] as well who have been on the other side of this, but there are there. You just have to weed through what's out there. And
[00:54:51]
[00:54:51] Hoyt: Well, we all need that positive and hopeful aspect. otherwise you just say, well, I'll just be on my own. And [00:55:00] it can be so much more rewarding to actually share a life with somebody that's interested in you, that is empathetic, that gets you and honors you. Uh huh.
[00:55:11] Hilary: they do still exist. There are some out there, you know, websites are not necessarily the best. Best way all the time to find it. But some of the new, I think the newer sites who usually the newer sites that come out, people have hope. So they go on the newer sites and I think it might be easier on some, and you're more of an expert on that piece, but I think there is more hope on some of the newer sites that come out as opposed to like some of the older sites
[00:55:38] Hoyt: Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. This has been really so enlightening. And at the end of the day, hopeful, because you don't have to stay. In a relationship that's abuse.
[00:55:50] Hilary: have to stay. I mean, you have to be ready. Like I said, I have women that take some time to years, but when they get to that point, I have a few clients in my [00:56:00] group right now. I usually have clients that are like in the beginning stages or Ready, but can't do it.
[00:56:06] and I see them on that, like that road. that's amazing. But just taking the first step for therapy is your really big step. And it may take a while, but you'll get there.
[00:56:19]
[00:56:22] Hoyt: Hillary Woodman I want to
[00:56:23] As we draw today's conversation to a close, want to extend a heartfelt thanks to Hillary Woodman for joining us today and sharing such invaluable insights. It's been an enlightening discussion on a topic that many find not only relevant. But crucial in understanding the dynamics of their past or current relationships. Today, we've peeled back the layers on narcissism uncovering not just the clinical definitions and behaviors. But more importantly, the real world impacts that it has on individuals in their relationships. We've learned about the [00:57:00] signs to watch for the long-term effects of being with a narcissist. And the importance of seeking support. Whether that's through friends, family, or professionals like Hillary.
[00:57:11] But let's end on a high note. If today's discussion resonated with you because you see reflections of your own experiences. Remember, there's a path to healing. Recovery. Isn't just a possibility. It's a reality for countless individuals who have moved beyond the shadow of narcissistic abuse. With the right support and resources. Anyone can start a new. Building relationships that are healthy. Uh, respectful and supportive. Thank you for listening today. If this episode moved, you consider sharing it with someone who might benefit from hearing it. We'll be back again next week with another all new episode of behind the swipe. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock. Until then. Swipe . fearlessly.
[00:57:59] [00:58:00]