Episode 26 - Best of Season 1

Best of Season 1

In this special episode of "Behind the Swipe," host Hoyt Prisock takes us on a journey back through the pivotal moments of season one, weaving together the rich tapestry of online dating experiences for those venturing into love's digital frontier in their later years. Highlights include a deep dive into the nature of rebound relationships from episode two,  where the conversation transcends the superficial to touch on the profound need for validation and connection after the end of long-term relationships.

We also revisit insights on the complexities of engaging with newly single partners from a female perspective, emphasizing the importance of healing and readiness before pursuing new romantic endeavors. The episode "The Paradox of Choice," featuring a discussion with Cindy Hopper, illuminates the overwhelming nature of endless dating options, illustrating how an abundance of choices can lead to indecision and dissatisfaction rather than meaningful connections.

Furthermore, dating coach Christine Baumgartner, in the episode titled "How to Reverse Engineer Online Dating," offers invaluable advice on the significance of self-awareness, clarity, and communication in navigating the online dating world. Through a blend of expert insights and personal stories, this episode distills the essence of "Behind the Swipe," offering guidance, hope, and encouragement for those over 45 seeking companionship in the ever-evolving landscape of online dating.

This week’s Guests: Bradley Richardson, Cindy Hopper, Sheri Jacobs, Morgan Lawley, Jennifer Hurvitz and Christine Baumgartner

Transcript:

Episode 26 - Best of Season 1
===

[00:00:00] Hoyt: Welcome to behind the swipe, the podcast that demystifies the challenges and complexities of dating in the second half of life. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock. In the first season of this show. We explored topics that ranged from building a great profile to how dating coaches work. To the mysteries of first date chemistry. We've had some fantastic expert guests. And I've heard from many anonymous daters. Who tell their inside stories of hope and heartbreak. In the search for romance. Since so many listeners have just joined us in season two. I thought it would be appropriate to devote this episode to some of my favorite moments from season one. I want her to go back to some of the segments that typified the experiences of many of us in our forties, fifties, and beyond. As we find ourselves once again, searching for love in the unknown waters of [00:01:00] modern dating apps. 

[00:01:01] But I also wanted to highlight some of the most thought provoking and inspiring ideas. 

[00:01:06] Our guest experts have shared so generously. So join me today. As we look back on some of the best interviews of behind the swipe. Season one. 

[00:01:22] 

[00:01:22] 

[00:01:23] Hoyt: In episode two, we focused on a topic near and dear to just about all of us who have decided to date again. After ending a long relationship with divorce or the loss of a spouse. Often these former relationships left us with more than a little uncertainty. About our own desirability. Both as a perspective, romantic partner and as a lover. But nearly universally. Once we summon that will to get back in the world of dating. We find ourselves in a rebound relationship. And this episode I was joined by [00:02:00] the creator of advanced adulting Bradley Richardson. I asked him about the typical rebound experience for men. After divorce. Let's listen in.

[00:02:10] Okay, so I'm gonna put a different spin on it. I too have been there and done that. Several times. We say, oh, they're just doing it for sex. Of course.

[00:02:22] Bradley: There are people out there that just aren't, that's okay. But I think when you really take a look at it, let's exchange that word, sex for attention or connection. That's really what it is. Now, that may be with your clothes on or with your clothes off.

[00:02:37] But if you're coming out of a crappy relationship, you've been single for a long time and you're either a lonely or you're coming out of a bad relationship, marriage, whatever. And you know, it is a. I have not had attention for a long time.

[00:02:52] this is very much a male perspective Okay. he's probably come out of a marriage. Of 27 years. Well, they haven't had sex in the past [00:03:00] four years.

[00:03:00] She thought he was an idiot. He's been berated and suddenly you go online, you're drinking from a fire hose, and oh my God, you go on one night in 45 minutes, you swipe right. Enough times and you get, oh my God. An hour later I'm having conversations with 20 attractive women who actually think I'm not a troll.

[00:03:18] This is pretty good. honestly, they're not sitting there thinking, how can I get laid? They're thinking, I am validated. I have value. I am seen, heard, and appreciated. I. And that goes both ways for men and women. But I think that's really it. 

[00:03:34] after a long term relationship, I went on the apps.

[00:03:37] And I am loaded for bear. I'm gonna see not how much I can get laid. people don't like to talk about this. Getting laid is easy. If you're a man or a woman, if you're a human being that can actually conjugate a verb and have a full set of teeth, you can get laid, okay?

[00:03:51] That's not the issue. The issue is attention, engagement, and connection. And for me, At the time, I was like, [00:04:00] you know what, I've been treated like crap. So here I'm just gonna go through and I am, my wall is up. I am callous. Nobody's hurting me. I'm not saying this is healthy, I'm just saying this is the very common mindset.

[00:04:11] And I'm getting attention and attraction, and I'm gonna do this as long as I possibly can. I'm gonna ride that train. And again, be clear, this is not about. Going to to get laid or with a purpose. This is, I like the attention, I wanna see what's out there

[00:04:25] 

[00:04:28] Hoyt (2): Attention engagement and connection. Who doesn't want that? These feelings in the first one or two semi-serious relationships can be incredibly seductive. 

[00:04:40] You may not have felt these emotions and urges for years. So yes, you want more? 

[00:04:46] I think of these early experiences as being part of a phase. A critically important one, but a phase nonetheless. Particularly, I think for men, the allure of being showered with attention after you come out of the [00:05:00] desert. Can be intoxicating. 

[00:05:02] And as we'll hear in our next interview from this episode, You probably don't want to hand the keys to your heart, to anyone who's intoxicated. 

[00:05:12] I wanted to get a woman's perspective on being on the other side of a rebound relationship. So I spoke with Elisa, a woman in her mid fifties who has been divorced for several years. I wanted to hear her perspectives on the challenges of rebound relationships. Especially when there's an asymmetry in your particular phase of dating. Listen to what she said. 

[00:05:40] Lisa: I remember you telling me that it was a red flag for you when someone was newly divorced and didn't have things figured out Come back in a year after your freshman year. Right? 

[00:05:54] Yes. I always say try to be the second or third. You don't wanna be the first. . you know, sometimes men [00:06:00] just wanna go right into the next relationship. That does happen also. so did you learn this lesson just intuitively or did you have an experience of that that taught you.

[00:06:10] Oh yeah, I had a few experiences of that Men that are divorced and just seeking their next partner right away, and then also some You know, it's like an experiment. Some of that's been in a long relationship, and then they're back out on the market and they have to get their feet wet.

[00:06:27] they might think that they wanna be involved with the first person, but it's too soon. I always think it's too soon. So I've seen things happen a couple of different ways, right?

[00:06:35] One is that mm-hmm. This is all brand new to them. They probably come out of a longtime relationship or a marriage or something where they mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, it, there's not been a lot of communication, not a lot of intimacy, a lot of, a lot of fun. Mm-hmm. And so mm-hmm. It's, it's like, wow. You know, kid in the candy shop 

[00:06:54] Yes. Like they're, you know, reborn. And so your experience of that is, [00:07:00] that's fine. You should do that. Mm-hmm. But just not with me. Exactly. 

[00:07:03] Uh, How I feel about it is that I think that people need to be more healed before they pursue another relationship. And usually that's not the case. Also, I think dating someone just out of a divorce, there's still blowback and there's still remnants and they're not quite out of the woods.

[00:07:23] And I think it's when it's still fresh. As much as they wanna move on, it still lingers and I think it takes time and a couple of relationships to work out all of that and be sure that you're ready for the next one. 

[00:07:36] I mean, if you wanna just have fun, that's great. And if you wanna help a man heal, then great. But that's really what you're gonna be. You're gonna be. Experimentation for them to start dating again cuz they don't know what they're doing 

[00:07:49] 

[00:07:52] Hoyt (2): What we learned in this episode was that there is a, some might say necessary re-entry phase into dating after a long time [00:08:00] relationship. All of it can be positive and affirming. But if you're looking for a committed relationship, You might want to let that newly single man or woman sample a few more of Baskin-Robbins 37 flavors before expecting them to choose. One of my favorite episodes of last season was episode seven with cohost Cindy hopper. In this episode, we dove into a fascinating, yep. 

[00:08:23] Puzzling phenomenon. The paradox of choice. You know, at first glance, the idea seems counter-intuitive right. How could having more options be anything other than advantageous in our quest for connection. Yeah, as we explore. This abundance might actually be our Achilles heel and finding meaningful relationships. Picture this an endless array of potential partners. 

[00:08:50] Each swipe revealing another chance at love or companionship. It sounds like a dream. 

[00:08:56] But as we delve deeper, we find it might just be a [00:09:00] Mirage. The concept isn't new 

[00:09:02] Over 50 years ago, futurist Alvin Toffler introduced us to choice overload in his groundbreaking book. Future shock. He warned us of the paralysis. Too many options can cause leading not to liberation, but to a perplexing sense of dissatisfaction. But what does this have to do with online dating? Imagine online dating as a vast marketplace of hearts and hopes. This marketplace operates as an inverted U curve of satisfaction. On one end, too few choices. 

[00:09:36] Leave us wanting. On the other. And overwhelming array leads to stress confusion. And the lingering dissatisfaction with our choices. It's a delicate balance where more isn't always better. 

[00:09:52] Furthermore dating apps, press us for time. Urging us to make snap judgements based on a photo or a witty bio. [00:10:00] Swipe left and they're gone. 

[00:10:02] Potentially taking with them a misconnection it's a high stakes game where the pressure to choose quickly. Can lead us to wonder if we're really giving each potential match a fair chance. 

[00:10:14] In this episode, we navigate the treacherous waters with stories from data is caught on both sides of this paradox. Drowning in options or parched by the scarcity of meaningful connections. We uncover strategies to combat choice over mode. 

[00:10:30] And consider whether our quest for more is leading us away from what we truly seek in a partner.

[00:10:37] To illustrate some of these challenges. Here's a clip from a woman named Carrie. Who's initial dating experience was very overwhelming.

[00:10:45] After hearing her story, sending you an I discuss some of the more relevant aspects of her observations. 

[00:10:52] 

[00:10:55] Kerrie: it was my first time on there. It was an overwhelming experience [00:11:00] and I didn't really even know how it worked. So I was thinking, I mean, as long as I've embarrassed myself, I, I'm just gonna take a little look around while I'm in here.

[00:11:08] So I start moving them over, into what I thought was like a folder so that I could go back in after I, kind of, Thrown a couple of them in the salad spinner and give them a little whirl. I thought, well, I'll, I'll get out some of the more interesting ones and then, go in and see if they kind of match up to my parameters or the things that I think are important.

[00:11:30] uh, I wanted to be able to take some time and sort it out, but there was way too many to like, I don't know, to get to the end.

[00:11:37] So I just, I thought I was just sticking them all in a folder, but apparently I was not.

[00:11:43] Hoyt: So what did you do then? You actually did end up staying online.

[00:11:48] Kerrie: Well, I did. I did end up meeting somebody pretty quickly, but. if that hadn't happened. I'm not sure I would've, stayed on there and, put [00:12:00] in the work that it was gonna take just to get to the bottom of that barrel. That doesn't sound good, right? Nobody wants to get to the bottom of the barrel, but, I understand now that when you're new, you get a whole lot of hits for your matching.

[00:12:14] And if I could go back and do it all over again, I would probably ask the same friend will you help me look at this and sort through these? Because, it was important to me to find a really good fit. but. It's like drinking from a fire hydrant, at first.

[00:12:32] So that wasn't a great experience all the way around just because of the sheer quantity and the amount of time it would take to go back through and, try to make sure all these little points I was looking for were met.

[00:12:47] Hoyt: So at the end of the day, while you did have a good experience, it was overwhelming and there was really no way that you could really do the kind of due diligence [00:13:00] on

[00:13:00] Kerrie: Yeah,

[00:13:00] Hoyt: of choices, right?

[00:13:01] Kerrie: that, that's a great term too. Due diligence. I'm a businesswoman and that's what it takes to make a good deal. felt like when you have that many profiles to go through, there's no way to do a good job. So either you don't do your due diligence and you, roll the dice and waste your time and put yourself in an awkward position, or you spend so much time investigating all these possibilities that by then who, whatever guys have expressed interest in you or whatever, they've moved on and I.

[00:13:34] I recognize even more now that I, I know more that, that is true. You know, you can't take a couple of days, once kind of the match has been made and express interest has been shared. You can't just like, take a week to get a criminal background check or whatever, you know, it's kind of, uh, do or die on those.

[00:13:57] And,

[00:13:57] I didn't love the way that made me feel.

[00:13:59] Hoyt: [00:14:00] So a couple of interesting things there, right? One is the impact of that quantity and volume and the time constraints that she talked about,

[00:14:12] Cindy: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Hoyt: Then the other thing that's fascinating there is that it almost sounds like women like Carrie were going into this, expecting that it wouldn't be work, 

[00:14:25] Cindy: Right. Right. Exactly. I think that's so interesting 'cause I hear that so often. Oh, it's so much work. What kind of things do we get in life without some work? Right? It's work. But if you look at it with an attitude of like, this is a new adventure, I'm gonna try it out. What kind of work is that? a couple things struck me there, and this may not be relevant, but I, I kind of laughed at the criminal background check.

[00:14:49] One of the things I did, Was, I would say, I need another online presence, whether it's LinkedIn or Facebook or, or maybe your business page to help me [00:15:00] know you're real. And, and you know, I'm not particularly suspicious, but as a woman, I need to be safe. And, and I would tell them, I would say, you know, what they say about online dating, men are worried.

[00:15:11] She lied about their weight. Women are worried about murder, you know, I, I laughed at that criminal background check because there, there are ways to, you know, make sure you feel safe, but that's probably another podcast.

[00:15:23] Yeah, I definitely get that. It can be too much because when I, but I think the way that the choice can become too much is when we're actually dating and we see a flaw, then we go back. I don't think the paradox of choice applies to swiping. Because we don't really have the information. I think we need to have the information before we filter.

[00:15:45] And knowing that there are 25 other guys that you were talking to, when you start to get to know someone and something comes up, maybe you've dated 'em for a couple of weeks and you're just not sure, you say, oh, am I ready to give up all those other choices

[00:15:59] Hoyt: Yeah.[00:16:00] 

[00:16:00] Cindy: and, and that's where the paradox of choice is a challenge.

[00:16:04] With online dating, there's something better.

[00:16:08] 

[00:16:11] Hoyt (2): So did we solve this riddle and offer our listeners a magic formula to ward off those anxieties that spring up from this paradox of choice? No. But as with everything else in online, dating, developing a keen awareness of how these dynamics directly affect your own and your partner's emotional responses. Well, it gets you halfway there. 

[00:16:34] If you listened to this podcast regularly. You know, I really love digging into the complex questions and challenges that impact our dating behaviors and often dictate the subconscious emotions and impulses that can undermine our romantic hopes. The psychology and the neurobiology of attraction and romance. Are endlessly fascinating to me. But occasionally we take a break from [00:17:00] the heady stuff and indulge in some of the popular cultural influences that at least tangentially. Inform how we date in the second half of life. In season one, we had two such episodes. Episode six was titled would Barbie swipe right on Ken. Then later in the season, we aired a rose for the golden bachelor as episode 13. And while, yes, these were fun. 

[00:17:26] Diversions. They also allowed us to address serious issues of societal norms and expectations. That were front and center in both the Barbie movie and the golden bachelor show. And our Barbie episode. We playfully examined both the gender stereotypes that were epitomized in the figures of Barbie and Ken and whether the Ken character in the film was. Unfairly caricatured at. At almost as an emasculated unit. Here's part of the conversation I had with Barbie [00:18:00] commercial director, Morgan Lawley and Bradley Richardson. 

[00:18:07] Morgan: I have four Kens here, but I had, probably who knows how many I've had over the years, and, they've lost their way. This one's legs fallen off. I had to kind of stick 'em back on. This is Malibu. Ken,

[00:18:19] me to introduce them?

[00:18:20] Hoyt: I might interview them later because, you know, I'm sure that they've emotional wounds that they have to deal with here as a result of, the rejection from Barbie.

[00:18:28] So Bradley. 

[00:18:31] Bradley: My, my early GI Joe experience. yeah, I mean I grew up in that era where, he was the cool boy's doll. And you didn't think him as doll. I never referred to him as a doll or thought of it that way.

[00:18:43] And, he was a badass. I mean, he did everything. And I, and, and kinda like Morgan had the little compound or encampment there. Of course. I mean, I had the helicopter, I had kung fu grip, I had eagle eye, I had, I had the, the white one, the black one, the one with the beard, everything.

[00:18:57] Barbie was for girls and she had her, you know, the [00:19:00] Ken thing and GI Jo was your action figure. So you did action things and manly things. But I really didn't think about it any other way. It just, it just 

[00:19:08] Morgan: was.

[00:19:08] there a GI Joe girlfriend in that, in that world?

[00:19:12] Bradley: No. Oddly enough, there wasn't, they never brought that out.

[00:19:16] Hoyt: And it gets to a thing that I wanted to explore here because one of the things that struck me about the Ken that was presented, the meek and mild Ken, when he entered the real world, And his eyes were open to this patriarchy and the men running the world and. The thing that he found that he lacked was competence. I mean, all he could do was beach, right? that was a, a kin role. So he had no competency, he had no strength. 

[00:19:44] Bradley: Well, I hoy, I agree with you a thousand percent. I don't think it's just dating online. I think it's just existing in America today, uh, as a man, I think a lot of it does have to do with. Uh, you know, and it started with our generation really. Um, you know, you find a lot of, you know, [00:20:00] again, I'll talk to clients of mine, and they'll say, what's the problem with men?

[00:20:02] I say, well, because they act like adolescents, because we get these mixed messages where we, it is these, this mixed message of. You know, well, I should be this way, but I should be this way. And, and really, so they're, they're confused as anything. And so they end up either being a wuss or, some sort of dickish behavior.

[00:20:18] a man should be dangerous, but be able to control it. I think that's 

[00:20:22] Morgan: I mean, we're looking for Lance Alot, you know, we're looking for the, I don't know about everyone again, but we're, you know, sort of romanticizing the fantasy of having the champion who is also a knight, you know, that can defend against, and yet, yes, my lady,

[00:20:41] 

[00:20:41] Hoyt (2): You may recall what a phenomenon, the addition last year of the golden bachelor to ABC's long running bachelor franchise was. You know, the shtick. A house full of bachelorettes compete over the course of a season for the amorous attention of one [00:21:00] single bachelor. Here's how I introduced this episode back in September of last year. We all know the stereotypes. Once you pass 50 for love train has left the station. Romance and dating is for the tender generation. In the second half of life you're advised. Nope. Expected to pour your passion into volunteering golf. Pick a ball. Or the worship of grandchildren. And the mainstream media generally reinforces that narrative. Like children. The older generation are expected to be seen and not heard and preferably not seeing it all. If you're in or approaching your later years, you've probably experienced this. And I'm not here today to rant against ageism. I'm not even here to proudly declare that 60 is the new [00:22:00] 40. 

[00:22:00] Hoyt: Yes, it's true that if you're older and in good health, Chances are you feel 20% younger than your driver's license proclaims? And that youthful energy applies not just to physical and intellectual pursuits. But also to the search for meaningful romantic relationships as well. Television and films. Have been almost blind to this energized population of so-called senior citizens. 

[00:22:28] Until now. Today, we're going to talk about ABC's newest reboot of the long lived bachelor franchise. The golden bachelor. 

[00:22:39] Despite the sometimes kitschy and formulaic elements of this reality TV show. Something important is happening. Older men and women are being shown for who they really are. Y's funny. Thoughtful. Caring. And most of all, just like the rest of us. [00:23:00] Longing for the most basic of needs. Love and companionship.

[00:23:05] My guest co-host for this episode was Sherry Jacobs who had written eloquently on her medium blog about how important and meaningful this show was to her. I asked her what it was about the show. Featuring these 60 and 70 something, men and women. That's so touched her. Here's part of that conversation. it.

[00:23:33] Sheri: It gave me hope. It gave me palpable hope to see, as you said Hoyt, these, dynamic, vital, intelligent men and women who were willing to be vulnerable.

[00:23:47] Not that the original bachelor women weren't, but I think when you have Youth on your side, your motivation for meeting someone might be, [00:24:00] not as pure always as it is when we're older. I read something 

[00:24:06] on Medium, said, I'm aware at this age, I'm paraphrasing, that the sands of time have moved on the other side of the glass. And I just thought that was so profound. And I think when we are older, Whatever older is whatever we perceive, not what society deems, but what we perceive is older You realize the clock really is ticking.

[00:24:31] It's a wake up call. And so you're less likely to Embark on a show like that where you really have put yourself out there unless you have genuine Pure motivation, and like you said about Gary, 

[00:24:47] is putting himself out there. They all, they just want love, and isn't that what everyone wants? We all want to know we matter. We all want to have that, you know. sense that we [00:25:00] belong to someone special. But I think when we get older, and this is what attracts me to the show, it becomes a lot more distilled and apparent, as opposed to when we're younger where we're just like fresh peaches off the vine.

[00:25:19] You know, I, I remember myself in college. I was a hottie. I was like, you're good. You're good. I'll go out with you. I'll go out with you. Because you're getting all this attention, and you don't even know where to look first, and then suddenly You're the other woman, you know, like yeah, not that, not that lady The one, the one next to the old lady, the hot one, you know, so Your perspective shifts, so does the show.

[00:25:49] Hoyt: Yeah. I, I agree with that. And I think that they've gotten past that point where they care that much about what society really thinks. Right. Which is a beautiful [00:26:00] thing, right? Because it allows them to expose who they really are in ways that maybe they couldn't have done in their twenties, thirties, and forties, right?

[00:26:09] They just couldn't have done that.

[00:26:10] Sheri: I also admire their humanness. but the vulnerability that still pervades us, even when we have a very different looking exterior than we did at 20, And the articulation and the awareness of that vulnerability that comes with it.

[00:26:29] one of the women, Leslie, I don't know if she's 65 or 70, she is so good. Every episode now she says things that are very aware of what she's feeling, like when she didn't get picked on the talent show we saw on the last episode, yesterday's episode, and you see her acknowledging her hurt.

[00:26:51] That she wasn't chosen, which is a very normal human emotion, but simultaneously, and this is maturity, [00:27:00] she's able to say, but I'm very happy for, Joan who got picked, to be able to hold two conflicting emotions in your heart is a wisdom that the world needs to see.

[00:27:14] What a great model for people in their 20s and

[00:27:17] 

[00:27:20] Hoyt (2): Two of my favorite conversations from last season were with dating coaches. To be honest before starting behind this wipe. I had only a vague awareness that dating coaches were even a thing. Worse yet. The cynical side of me was a bit suspicious of the whole business model. Were these just charlatans and snake oil salesman, taking advantage of. Men and women at their lowest and loneliest. Jennifer Hurvitz and Christine Baumgartner turned my preconceptions on their heads. 

[00:27:54] In episode 12. We'll hear from a woman. We'll call Amy. She freely shares her initial [00:28:00] expectations of her post-divorce life. And the cold, hard realities she faced after throwing herself into the dating pool. Listen as Jennifer and I talk about Amy situation. And how she could and should benefit from the assistance of a dating coach. Let's hear first from Amy. 

[00:28:22] Amy: I didn't wait long because I got married at 22 and it was way too early. I knew my ex husband since I was 12. But we didn't start dating till right before my senior year of college. And we were together a long time.

[00:28:39] Although we were great friends, and it was more of like a roommate situation, really. And I look back at it, and it's probably not what a marriage should have been. not that there's any, special, mold for that. But it really was not an ideal situation. So, I was not really emotionally... in the [00:29:00] marriage that I wanted that connection with someone and I come from a family where my parents had the most amazing marriage of all time.

[00:29:08] that's always was the bar for me, So when I got separated, I just wanted to date right away. Like I just really was looking to meet and have that emotional connection with someone. So I was pretty quick out of the gate, like. I started dating probably like after I got separated, like two months later, which was way too fast.

[00:29:27] Oh, I thought I was gonna meet a ton of people I was like, this is gonna be easy, you know, because when I got Separated and my friends knew that I was unhappy or really was ready, I'm young. I'm going to be 49 next month. My kids are older for my age. I have a career.

[00:29:43] And everyone's like, Oh, you're going to, this is going to be easy for you to meet somebody. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to have no problem I was in for the shock of my life. It is not easy. I don't care if you look like Christy Brinkley or the opposite. It is not easy. I think it's just, it's all personal.

[00:29:58] It's like a [00:30:00] personal thing. It's not easy.

[00:30:01] Hoyt: So you went on bumble and you went on hinge and you had some success with all of that but Amy when did the disillusionment really start to kick in 

[00:30:10] Amy: I just felt like the type of guys I wanted to meet were not on the apps. I wanted to meet someone who was, established in their own life. And I felt like it was just a lot of games and a lot of nonsense and nobody was just like, Okay, let's just do this.

[00:30:29] Let's meet. Let's talk. And it was a lot of, I wasn't looking for a pen pal. I could have had 7, 000 pen pals by now.

[00:30:36] it's hard. It's really, really hard. I feel like if you know what you want, or you think you know what you want, you have an ideal, it's hard to get every, everything that you want, of course, and you could sacrifice certain things, but even trying to do that, after a while, I was like, oh, this is just, it became upsetting after a while.

[00:30:56] Like, it was just a drag,

[00:30:58] Hoyt: Boy, Jennifer, [00:31:00] I have heard that story in one form or another

[00:31:03] Jenn: how many times have

[00:31:04] Hoyt: for years.

[00:31:05] Jenn: I know. It breaks my heart. I'm sitting here and I'm like shaking my head and I'm nodding and I'm saying, oh my gosh, that's every, basically every one of my clients that comes to me and they're frustrated and they're to the point where they're like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:31:19] Like dating has become work. It's a struggle. It shouldn't be a struggle and it shouldn't be work, but you know what? It, it, it needs to be intentional. You need to be intentional when you're dating. But the problem is, is that it's like, what's that? There's that middle ground of when do I stop and give myself a break?

[00:31:37] Cause I can't do this anymore. And when do I hire someone who makes it more fun? Because that's really what I try to do. I try to make it more fun for you. It's really, it can be really a struggle.

[00:31:48] Hoyt: And a big part of that is just the internal work. so going back to Amy. And listening to her story, uh, gosh, I felt this myself when I was divorcing, I was coming out of this and [00:32:00] I felt like I had, been trudging through the desert, 

[00:32:03] And all of a sudden, here's this, what looks like an oasis. Right? And you throw yourself in and it's a crazy wild ride. You have no idea what to expect. And so, you know, for her, she didn't have any idea what to expect, but based on what she was hearing from friends, which is common also, right, that, oh, girl, you got this,

[00:32:31] Jenn: It should be so easy. You're beautiful, you're smart, you're this, you're that, you've got it all together. No problem. Get on the apps. Go, go, go. And then you're inundated with a bunch of, you know, it's just this crap of like, you know, Um, things that you don't, that you don't want, right? Well there's, we, as dating coaches, we have tricks.

[00:32:50] there's a way to do it. We'll talk about it later, but like there's a reason why we're here. We know what we're doing, right? And our job is to make sure that, that doesn't happen to you right out of the [00:33:00] gate because look, it happened to me. I did the same thing. I was like, Oh, this will be easy.

[00:33:04] I've been married for 13 years and I've got it all together, but it doesn't matter. It has to be both sides. Right? It has to be both sides. And you have to be in the right place and you have to be in the right frame of mind and you, and the new thing now is the trend is you have to use your words and you have to say what you want ahead of time so you avoid all that, those pen pals and situationships and the textationships.

[00:33:25] We can talk about that later too, but

[00:33:26] Hoyt: Oh,

[00:33:27] Jenn: Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's a mess. Dating coaches, no. We know how to cut that off at the pass, so we, you know, you avoid all that disillusionment ahead of time, you know?

[00:33:38] Hoyt: So in a post divorce dating world, you'll typically see, this almost euphoria at the early stages because, you know, people coming out of these long term relationships that might've been loveless, right? Or, or even worse, right? Even abusive.

[00:33:54] Jenn: Absolutely.

[00:33:55] Hoyt: And you, and you get to this place and say, Oh, somebody's paying attention to me. You [00:34:00] know, I remember, and this is, this is not part of what I have to play for here with Amy, but she was talking about essentially, she didn't define it as such, but it was a rebound relationship.

[00:34:10] Jenn: and usually the first one out of the gate is.

[00:34:13] Hoyt: And she had thought that. Oh, this is the new love of my life I'm done. I'm settled. I'm ready to go.

[00:34:21] Jenn: Happened to me too. Yep.

[00:34:23] Hoyt: And in her case, it was, the guy that she was seeing that said, uh, uh, uh, uh, time out. You haven't sown your wild oats yet. You don't know yourself in this, in this world yet. So let's just take it easy.

[00:34:40] Jenn: Right. And if she had, you know, if she had come to me or if she had seen a dating coach or a therapist, they probably would, or listen to a friend who had been through it, through a divorce, they probably would have all said the same thing. Look it. You're right. You know, take your time. You take it easy, girl.

[00:34:57] Hold on. See you in a year. See [00:35:00] you when you're ready. But you know what? When you're going through it, you don't want to hear that. No one's going to tell you what to do. You've got this, you know, you're ready to get out there. But here's the point. you have to go through it to understand it, right?

[00:35:12] So no matter what happens, you're going to do what you want to do, unfortunately. And whether that ends up with you getting hurt or getting a little, stung, it happens, right? But then it's funny because you come back two years later and you're like, God, I wish I would have listened to Jen

[00:35:28] Hoyt: yeah,

[00:35:29] Jenn: I would have listened to myself because I, that first relationship, but oh my God, it was awful and blah, blah, but you know what?

[00:35:34] It's true. You have to be. Ready. And it's not as much about, I tell people this all the time, my clients do, it's not about the, the when, it's about the why. Why do you want to date? What are you looking for? Why, what's your, what's your goal? Is it to be in a long term relationship? Is it just casual sex? Is it just to, you know, fill that void?

[00:35:53] Whatever it is, know your why. Know your why when you're ready to start dating.

[00:35:57] Hoyt: that's probably the most important piece of advice [00:36:00] isn't it if you go if you come out of this with nothing else Understand your why

[00:36:04] Jenn: Know your why. And look, if it's just for casual sex, go girl, go guy, do it. Just own that, but know that it's going to come with maybe a couple repercussions down the road. You know, you're not going to get into a long term relationship with someone who you just want friends with benefits, right? So don't beat yourself up down the road when that

[00:36:22] Hoyt: that's great advice. So typically you reach this peak of euphoria And then you sort of trail off until this valley of drudgery Right, is that typically when somebody says I might need some help

[00:36:35] Jenn: Well, you know what? Hopefully, or they go to a friend or they, they are just in the, they see some dating, you know, on Tik TOK and dating coach or whatever saying, and there's, and look at, there's so much free information out there. There's podcasts like yours. There's podcasts like mine. There are, there are so many, oh my gosh, books and, and everything.

[00:36:54] But I think you have to get just like your intro said, you don't wait. to be at your worst [00:37:00] condition to find a trainer, right? You find a trainer when you're like, you know what? I need help. I need help with this. I don't know what I'm doing. And that's when you find a coach. That's when you say, you know what?

[00:37:10] I think I really do need someone who's an unbiased. someone's unbiased opinion, right? Sometimes friends can tend to be a little judgmental. You know, your parents, your family, they're judgmental too. They mean well. You need someone who's going to be your cheerleader and build your confidence and your self esteem.

[00:37:29] And that's what coaches do. That's our job.

[00:37:32] Hoyt: and as we heard from Amy the friends that were giving her this advice had not been walking in these shoes

[00:37:38] Jenn: they're not. And they see it from a different lens, right? Every, and like divorces are like snowflakes, right? Each one is very different. So unless you go through it in your own. You're looking through a lens of your own, right? They're looking through it from the outside saying, Oh, you're a, you know, some people say the worst things.

[00:37:54] I wrote a chapter in my book about that, like just toxic positivity, but like to it's like, you know, [00:38:00] the extreme like Oh, your ex husband was horrible. Anyone you date is better than him, right? Like okay. Thanks guys. Right? That kind of stuff. And you're getting that. They don't mean to be mean, but it's, it's hurtful, right?

[00:38:15] Hoyt: huh,

[00:38:16] Jenn: you know, we gotcha. Coach has gotcha.

[00:38:19] Hoyt: so in the dating coaching world. it's very different from, it's not matchmaking,

[00:38:24] Jenn: No, it's not. I'm so glad you said that. I'm

[00:38:26] Hoyt: Yeah. So help me understand the real difference

[00:38:28] Jenn: Okay. So as a coach, we set you up for success from the jump. We are like, we know what we're doing. We know the tricks, we know the tips, we know all that good stuff, but we don't have a database. Okay, so we're not there.

[00:38:39] We work on one side of the, the relationship. I'm coaching just one person. So let's say Amy. I'm just coaching Amy. I'm helping her set up her profile. I'm helping her pick her pictures. I'm doing her bio for her, which is my favorite part in writing the bio. That's like my, my jam. I love it. but I don't have, I'm not going to set [00:39:00] her up on dates.

[00:39:01] I don't have a database to look for her perfect match on the other side, right? That's a matchmaker. So if you're looking for a matchmaker, that's a little bit more pricey. They, they vet people for you. They have a, you know, they set you up, you go out on dates, blah, blah, blah. That's not a coach. Now, there are some matchmaking companies that also have coaching services. That's awesome too. You just have to make sure that you really do your research because it's not one size fits all. And some coaches are great with some people and some coaches are great with other people. Some are just for men, some are just for women, some are just, you know, it just depends.

[00:39:36] Hoyt: Let me ask you about that, Jennifer, because, um, well, I want to ask you two questions here for the first one is. There seem to be so many dating coaches out there and there's not a national organization that certifies dating coaches So anybody can hang a shingle out there. How does somebody Determine whether they've got somebody that really knows what they're what they're doing.

[00:39:58] How do they [00:40:00] make that decision. Is it based on a TikTok?

[00:40:02] Jenn: Well, I think, first of all, it has to do with personality. You know, if you click with the person, if you listen to their podcast and you think that they know what they're talking about, that's first. Secondly, there are life coaches and people that are certified. I'm a certified divorce specialist. I also have a degree from Michigan State in family and child ecology and all that good stuff and you can look up whatever.

[00:40:22] But I also think that, a lot. of clout, comes from what they know, what they've done with their life experiences to what they've gone through, what they're going through. Um, coaches need coaches too. So I also have a coach. I have a therapist, but I'll tell you this for free. I am not a therapist.

[00:40:41] So I work with therapists. So if someone comes to me, like let's say Amy, and she's right out of a divorce and I do not think she's ready to date. And I think that she's not in the right mindset. I have. therapists that I will send my clients to first. So I work with really great therapists [00:41:00] because I'm not one and I'm not emotionally, you know, I'm not, I'm not certified to do that.

[00:41:04] So I think it's really important that you, that if you see a coach, that they're honest and they don't take you just for the money. Like, you know, if you're not in a place to date, they shouldn't be coaching you. I really feel strongly about that. You know?

[00:41:17] Hoyt: So it sounds like that's very similar to, you know, we opened the episode here with the analogy to physical fitness and a trainer, but if you present yourself after not exercising essentially forever, like the first thing that a trainer is probably going to do is say, go see your GP, right? Get checked out, make sure you understand what your limitations are,

[00:41:42] Jenn: blood pressure, your

[00:41:43] Hoyt: corrected that's going to prevent you from achieving your goal

[00:41:46] Jenn: absolutely. Because if you're not, if your mindset isn't such that you're prepared to get out there and date and you're not, you're not, you're not, good with yourself, how can you be good with someone else? How can you give a hundred percent to dating if you're [00:42:00] still in that negative, horrible, angry space where you're still bad mouthing your ex?

[00:42:04] 

[00:42:07] Hoyt (2): In the final episode from last season, how to reverse engineer online, dating. Coach Christine Baumgartner advises that a major factor in online dating success is to recognize your own patterns. Without that introspection, you're likely to be stepping in the same holes over and over again. A recurring theme. 

[00:42:28] And Christine's advice is the importance of clarity about your desires and needs in a relationship. knowing what you want and being able to communicate that effectively helps and finding a compatible partner and prevents settling for less than you deserve. Let's listen to some of our conversation from episode 16. 

[00:42:52] Christine: Often we don't want to look at what didn't really work before.

[00:42:56] We just go, this is what I want different, but we don't look at what didn't work [00:43:00] before. We just want something different. So we keep dating often the same people over and over, or having the same unpleasant thing happen, or we don't meet anybody, or we're afraid to even start because we've heard all the horrible stories.

[00:43:15] So when you, keep meeting the same person over and over again, which is what I did personally before I met my late husband. It took me a while to finally go, well, maybe it has a little bit to do with me . So, if you have hurts or you've had bad experiences, even just you're growing up and you didn't see good relationships or you haven't had good relationships with friends or coworkers as well as romantic, that's the way that you're approaching your relationships now and that can not have a good result.

[00:43:49] And one of the things I found out when I was doing this more conscious way of dating, you don't want to date anybody with baggage. And I said, [00:44:00] well, then they're going to be two, because everybody's got baggage. And really looking at what your baggage is doesn't make you a bad person. It makes you somebody who wants to grow.

[00:44:11] So when I looked at my baggage, because I'm a really visual person, I discovered I had this U Haul truck following me around that had the stuff in it from a house full of family of five people. And that's a lot to be dragging around, period. And certainly a lot to be putting on somebody else. So, figuring out how to go through my personal baggage and, I say, get it down to the size of a bag that would fit in an overhead bin on an airplane is advisable.

[00:44:37] So,

[00:44:37] Hoyt: it. That's a great analogy.

[00:44:39] Christine: thanks. It's one of the ways we keep stumbling along when we go, why is the wrong person showing up and there's only these kind of people, there's only... Bad men. There's only bad women. Nobody wants to make a commitment. They all are mean. They're all narcissists. That's the catch word. They all only want sex.

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] They only want my money. Yeah, there's people out there. Online dating, next to you at the grocery counter. They're everywhere, but it's really a small percentage. But if that's all you're seeing, and I'm telling you it's a small percentage, then maybe it's like, Oh, maybe it's me. Maybe it's what I think I need.

[00:45:20] Maybe it's what I feel like. Attraction. It's really wild what I personally discovered because I wasn't a coach then, I just was somebody dating to figure out for myself and then figure out how to teach other people because we are uneducated. We're smart people, but anything you've learned how to do in your life, drive your car, use your phone, do your job.

[00:45:43] You went to school, you had somebody teach you and people just think, just believe that they should just know how to date and We're not very good at it for a lot of these reasons that I'm stating.

[00:45:55] Hoyt: so what do people mostly get wrong in your [00:46:00] experience? What are the misconceptions that somebody that, oh, maybe they were divorced two years ago and now they're maybe ready to go meet somebody. What are the general misconceptions that you see out there with prospective online

[00:46:16] Christine: That chemistry is enough. It's not. Because what will happen is, chemistry has us put on rose colored glasses and go into a hormone fog. And you cannot see red flags if you put on rose colored glasses. It's a physical impossibility. So we ignore things that are warnings. We won't ask the hard questions. We don't even know the questions to ask.

[00:46:41] We go, wow, we both like Chinese food and we like Mel Brooks movies. We should think about it for future relationship without thinking about what are the other really important things to you. Because so many of the things that come up that are problems, they didn't ask [00:47:00] later. They did the problems later.

[00:47:01] They didn't ask. They didn't. even know to ask, they were afraid to ask, they've gotten in so far they're afraid the other person's going to leave if they ask. And I think that that's the biggest thing , not knowing what you really need and want, and then not finding out if the other person can do that. And it doesn't make them a bad person if they can't, it just makes them maybe not right for you.

[00:47:22] But if we don't ask, how will we know if they can meet us somewhere in the middle ? And how will we know if they can't? So, so much of what I see is You're not clear about what you want. And if you're not clear about what you want, then you'll settle. And nobody should settle when it's their heart. So I think that that's a lot of the mistakes.

[00:47:45] And I think that they take dating so seriously in the beginning. The very first meeting, I'm going to meet my future person. Say, no. I have lots of advice about the first meeting. [00:48:00] Or, do you know, he... Only talked about himself and he didn't ask me about him at all. But then the poor guy goes, all she did was ask me questions and I didn't learn anything about her.

[00:48:11] Lots of people won't go on a second date because this very normal thing that men and women do that they don't know how to do differently until I teach them happens. And they're like, well, I'm over this. And it's so unfair. They also think, do I need to figure out how different I'm going to be so that they'll like me?

[00:48:31] Rather

[00:48:32] Hoyt: that's very interesting, right?

[00:48:34] Christine: being yourself, be yourself. But no , you know, I want to wear the outfit that's going to impress them. I want to show that I'm really educated about something that I don't really care about, or I'm going to be intimidated by their education or it's wild. This, the conversations we have in our head about the other person that never includes them.

[00:48:56] How sad is that?

[00:48:58] Hoyt: Indeed.

[00:48:59] Christine: All the [00:49:00] time, even in marriages that happens, but it certainly happens on the first couple of dates.

[00:49:04] Hoyt: So, Christine, one of the things that, I think I've heard you talk about is being clear upfront about why it is that you're wanting to date. And there could be a number of legitimate reasons for that. Not everybody is looking for marriage or a permanent, relationship. And people move through different stages with dating, right?

[00:49:32] You might be dating for Just the opportunity to go out on the town and have fun. Perfectly legitimate. You might be dating primarily for a sexual partner. Perfectly legitimate. But if you don't understand really what you're, you know, when you were just talking a moment ago, it's like, uh, I don't remember who it was that said, well, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there, right?

[00:49:58] And that's how [00:50:00] too many people I think approach. Dating.

[00:50:02] Christine: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think most people approach dating without a roadmap. Without any thought about, well, where do I want to end up? They all say, I'm going to know when I get there. I'm going to know them when I meet them. And I think those are valid statements. They need a lot before them, though. You can't just go on those two things.

[00:50:28] You have to have, well, how will you know if you don't know what it is? If you figured out what it is ahead of time, you will definitely know when you meet that person. You'll definitely know when you get there. And it's, what you said is so important because we don't... Make a plan. We make lots of other plans in our lives about what it is we really need and want

[00:50:55] Hoyt: mean, you make a plan when you go to the grocery store, right?

[00:50:58] Christine: Yes. And then you might see something [00:51:00] that, wow, I never thought about that. That's an interesting trait that person has. If I put it back in dating or, wow, I never thought about that. No, I don't want that at all. And to speak at, being really clear about what you need and want. So many women will comment about, well, 

[00:51:16] there's way more women in our age group of over 50 than men , which is true because men sadly die sooner. And what's really interesting is there's been a couple of articles in big newspapers lately about this huge contingent of women over 50. They don't want a permanent relationship. They don't want a commitment.

[00:51:36] They're happy to see maybe one guy on the weekends, go to the movies, go to dinner, maybe go away for the weekend, maybe have sex. They don't want committed. And I will tell you out loud, cause I talk to men all day long, every day, half my clients are men. Most men over 50 want a relationship with one woman where they see each other really [00:52:00] regularly.

[00:52:01] So yes, there still are more single women than men available that want relationships, but the odds are so much closer than they've ever been. Because of this pocket of women that, for a variety of reasons, I would be happy to tell you say no thank you to this kind of man, of which there are lots. So if women would believe this, they would stop feeling so negative and about themselves that there aren't gonna be enough men and be more forthcoming about, well, I want this.

[00:52:35] I understand there's lots of men that want this if you're a woman that wants a relationship. And I think it's important to get the word out there. 

[00:52:46] Hoyt (2): I hope you've enjoyed this. Look back at some of the best moments and great conversations from season one. Remember, you can find full episodes from season one and season2@behindtheswipe.com or wherever [00:53:00] you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of behind the swipe. I'm your host Hoyt price sock. Until next time. Swipe fearlessly.