Julie: 0:00

One more college try. I, I am on three balls, two strikes. Let's try this one more swing

Hoyt: 0:08

Well, you know, you may have to foul a few of them off here before you, uh,

Julie: 0:11

That's true. I, I hit left field quite frequently, so.

Hoyt: 0:24

Welcome to behind the swipe. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock. And today we're launching a new special series that promises to be both enlightening and transformative. We're calling it Julie's journey. Uh, behind this white dating make-over. Over the course of the next few months and in real time, We're going behind the scenes in one woman's journey into the waters of online dating. Today's episode. Pre-gaming. Joining us today is one of my favorite and most insightful guests said the hopper. Cindy is a counselor and therapist here in Atlanta, who at our request has personally coached Julie much as she would in her professional capacity. Together, we'll delve into the emotional and practical facets of re-entering the dating world. Now Julie, while not her real name is very much real in her experiences, her aspirations and her challenges. She's a vibrant, mid fifties, single mom and a professional Who's stepping back into the dating scene with a new perspective, and she's bravely sharing that journey with us. Today, Cindy, and I will explore a range of topics. From the importance of self-awareness to authenticity and online dating to practical advice on creating a compelling dating profile. We'll discuss the psychological aspects of dating. Like understanding personal patterns and the impact of past relationships on present dating behavior. Cindy will also share her insights on how to navigate the complexities. Of dating platforms. And how to set realistic expectations without sacrificing what's essential for genuine connection. So, whether you're a seasoned dater or you're contemplating stepping into the dating scene after a long hiatus. This series is for you. We'll explore, not just how to date, but how to bring your truest self to the dating table. We'll discuss why knowing yourself your real self. Is perhaps the most critical step in finding someone who's truly compatible with you. Now, let me tell you a little bit more about Cindy. Cindy hopper is an Atlanta based therapist, dedicated to holistic healing. She extends her passion beyond individual couple and family counseling. To guide women through post divorce support groups. Cindy believes in the transformative power of intentional living. Viewing it as a key to crafting a meaningful life. Which includes the mini chapters. We all flow through in our different seasons. She finds fulfillment in witnessing clients embracing this philosophy. Shaping their futures with purpose and intention. So if you're ready. Let's open the book of Julie with my conversation with Cindy hopper. Cindy Hopper, welcome back to Behind the Swipe. You know, you've always been one of my favorite guests here and I can't wait for today's episode. So, thank you for being here.

Cindy: 3:31

Thank you for asking me. I, I really enjoy this and I am excited about today's episode as well, Hoyt. It's, it's always good for us to get to discuss this topic together.

Hoyt: 3:40

Exactly. You know, for just about all of the episodes of Behind the Swipe that we've done, we've taken a single concept, that has been as often as not theoretical and we've tried to apply some practical steps and advice. to those, theories with this series that we're doing with Julie. We get a chance to bring it all together through the lens of one woman's experience and I just can't wait. We, neither of us know how this is going to unfold, right?

Cindy: 4:15

It's like a cliffhanger.

Hoyt: 4:16

It is. It absolutely is. And Julie indicated that she has a desire to get back into the dating world and do it a little bit differently this time. So in many ways, I think she speaks for other men and women in their self assessment of what opportunities may exist for them.

Cindy: 4:39

Right. Right. I think that's so interesting too. And I think that even though we're focusing on Julie in this series, that really every woman can take from this. And even every man, I think like so many of the principles, you know, cross gender boundaries and, I think it's a beautiful thing to get to.

Hoyt: 4:55

And, you know, I really appreciate Julie's willingness to, be open and vulnerable about this. Because as I had indicated to her, and I know you have too, is that, look, our obligation to our audience and to you is to be as honest as we can be in looking at your situation and pointing out the things that you may not be doing right, the things that you might want to change a little bit in your approach that would improve your experience of online dating. So, hats off to Julie for, for being willing to be that vulnerable.

Cindy: 5:30

know, I think that's such a good point. She was very vulnerable with me and I did really an assessment that I would do with a client and she was willing to work with me on that because it's so important to know why we chose patterns in the past, uh, in order to get something different and it all goes back to, you know, childhood attachment and attachment relationships. And, she was very willing to to talk about her history. I say we don't have to go digging in the past for problems because the problems of the past show up in the present and they show up in our relationships. So

Hoyt: 6:05

I love that. And we're going to get a chance to see that firsthand.

Cindy: 6:08

Right, right. And I have to say, the other thing about Julie is that she has done a lot of work. she's done a lot of work, and discovering herself and her patterns and her history, and that is so valuable. I, uh, one of, one of the things that I think is, is, um, so important is, is to do some work with a therapist or a coach and kind of really figure out who you are. in this whole process, because we can say we're looking for a laundry list, but really we need, we're looking for similar values. And if we don't know our own values, that gets a little confusing. We can focus on the superficial and then be disappointed.

Hoyt: 6:44

That is so true. and it's so easy in the inherent superficiality of most of these dating sites to fall into that. Oh, what is expected of me rather than what is authentic for me?

Cindy: 6:59

Yes. Yes. And we talk about that. We want honesty. And I know that was important to Julie. And I think more of what she was saying was authenticity. That she wanted and transparency. And, I think that as we enter this, you know, a lot of people criticize online dating because it's just all so visual and I think, well, what, what is it when we meet someone in person, it's visual. So. Online dating is visual and also written, you know, so we have not only like the visual package. So I think of it as, um, and, and, you know, I'm hesitant to say this because, but it was kind of what kept coming to my mind when I was online dating was that I'm a commodity. And I think, especially at a certain age, you realize you're a package with this whole life. And if we look at. We're marketing ourselves and there are three P's in marketing. It's product placement and packaging. I mean, think about that when we're creating our profile, product placement and packaging.

Hoyt: 8:01

let's absolutely get into that. But before we do, let's hear from Julie because The audience has not been exposed to who she is yet and no better way to do it than just with a few of these snippets of conversation that I had with Julie. So, let's listen to her introduction.

Julie: 8:17

I'm in my mid fifties. I work in finance. I've been doing that for about 20 plus years. I have a 15, a 14 year old son and, uh, a play tennis, pickleball. I, my divorce was in 2016 and I didn't date for about five or six years after my divorce. Just wanted to spend some time focusing on my son and focusing on myself. I waited a while to have my son and I am a single mom. So. Number one, bringing someone into my sphere. He's not just me. There's a very, very important 14 year old that will be involved in my world. I'm still single because I went through a long time of choosing the wrong person is the best way I would describe that. I was trying to find someone I thought would complete me because I wasn't complete yet. Now, after a lot of time and a lot of focus. I found my center. I'm looking now to find someone I can play with and build a future with that would be a partner in crime. My strengths are I'm a lot of fun. I love to play and I've got a very quirky sense of humor. I tend to be shy when I meet somebody. However, you'll wish for that after you get to know me. I am strong willed and I'm passionate and when I give my heart to someone, they have all of me. I expect the same.

Hoyt: 9:51

That was a lot in a minute and a half, wasn't it? I mean, she really touched on a lot of interesting threads here that I think we can pull on. But you had a subsequent conversation with Julie. and I'm guessing that you got more color on some of these issues that she's bringing up. Particularly, she sounds confident. She sounds like, you know, I've got it together. I'm fun. I'm caring. I've got all of these great qualities here. And here's the reality of my world, particularly with her 14 year old son. so she knows that there are dating challenges associated with that. What was your take on that?

Cindy: 10:33

Yeah, you know, it was interesting. I really, really enjoyed talking to Julie and I also noticed there was, I want to say almost a bravado. some of the, Confidence that she was expressing, I felt like was maybe trying to convince herself. And so it's like when we write a resume, we want to present our best selves. but if we promise something that we can't do, if we say, Oh yeah, I'm efficient at Excel. And we get in and we don't know how to do it. Think of how insecure we're going to be every time we have an assignment to do an Excel spreadsheet and all the back work we're going to have to do. So if we oversell our confidence areas. It's really hard to be vulnerable then when we meet someone and realize, Oh, that, you know, I said I was this, and I'm trying to really present that. And I don't really feel it inside. And so I find that really interesting because she has so much value, to offer. But sometimes I think the explanation of herself was not as authentic as it could

Hoyt: 11:39

And as you called it, in a fashion that comes off as a little bravado, right?

Cindy: 11:44

Right. Right.

Hoyt: 11:45

There are many people that have the opposite kind of issue, right? They undersell themselves.

Cindy: 11:51

Yes.

Hoyt: 11:52

Entirely, but the effect is the same, right? And you got to it is that this is marketing, but you're also trying to understand your customer and how you're being perceived by your customer, right? Or your prospective romantic partner. I thought that was fascinating. Well, I

Cindy: 12:12

I mean, we're all trying to attract the best possible option and often we're trying to express that we are what we're trying to attract. and some things get overemphasized that may not be really the great charm about ourselves. One of the things, I do with clients is when we talk about, especially when we're talking about developing self love or self esteem, there's like a pyramid that we talk about and that starts with self awareness. And that self awareness is what is important about me, including what are my weaknesses. And then next comes self acceptance. Okay. These are my strengths. These are my weaknesses. I'm going to accept my weaknesses. Know that I can work on them, but some of them are just, you know, going to be always a part of me. And until we've done that awareness and that acceptance, we don't develop the self esteem and the self love that we're looking for. That's, I think that's a really

Hoyt: 13:11

not the kind of success when she was online dating that she wanted to have. initial takeaway was you're kind of aiming too low, in the partners that you're attracting and I, I didn't really understand why that was.

Cindy: 13:34

Well, we had some really good conversations and, really based in attachment theory. I really work in that field and it's kind of a popular topic right now, but I think it's really misunderstood. We all have attachment wounds from our past. And especially those of us who are at this age and we've had experiences in relationships, we've probably had some disappointment, we've probably had some heartbreak, and there may have been things from childhood. It almost doesn't matter what our attachment style is. We have a fear of abandonment and sometimes we go for the low hanging fruit because we don't want to be hurt. And,

Hoyt: 14:09

And, and so that can easily become just a pattern that repeats itself.

Cindy: 14:13

exactly, exactly. That's why it's so important to really evaluate what have been my past patterns, what caused me to choose this partner that wasn't a good fit.

Hoyt: 14:25

in Julie's journey really this is the very beginning because as you said, understanding yourself and understanding. What your strengths and weaknesses are to the point where you can come to it and acceptance and in embracing of that

Cindy: 14:41

Right.

Hoyt: 14:42

it's not going to have the kind of payoff in the dating world until you do that work So this is pre gaming essentially for

Cindy: 14:52

Pre gaming. Yes. And, and, you know, it doesn't matter whether it's online dating or other forms of dating and meeting people and meeting friends, honestly, it's, it's the same concept, understanding ourselves and accepting ourselves. We

Hoyt: 15:07

Uh huh

Cindy: 15:08

our best self.

Hoyt: 15:10

You know, I got the sense that Julie was very much open to you really any kind of advice that would give her a better experience here. But I have a little clip of a conversation that we had with her talking about what her experience and expectations are and her attitude toward this process that we're embarking on.

Cindy: 15:32

Great. Great. Let's hear it.

Julie: 15:34

I am most definitely eagerly embracing the idea of coaching and learning. I have been on multiple different sites, and I've been on a lot of dates. I've met some people, but it's been a mixed bag experience. You don't know what you don't know, and I have a feeling that my eyes are going to be very opened to a lot of things that I haven't seen. In this round of dating, I'm looking for honesty and trust The ability to be better at seeing someone before I'm further down the line. I think that I have spent a long time not seeing myself and so as I've spent years alone and building the person that I am, I'm still using traits that may be from the past. So I'd like to embrace the future and see how this person moves forward.

Hoyt: 16:31

So that's great. That's very encouraging.

Cindy: 16:34

Yes, it really is. I, I love Julie's openness to understanding herself. And like I say, the vulnerability, even in our, sessions that I had with her was really touching that she was willing to go there.

Hoyt: 16:50

So, Cindy, let's talk about embracing and owning both your strengths and your weaknesses as part of this process. I think the strengths are easily understood, sometimes if they're not really understood. embraced internally, you know, that comes on, uh, comes off as inauthentic.

Cindy: 17:12

Yes. Yes.

Hoyt: 17:14

but at the end of the day, most people I think are attracted to potential partners who have a fairly high level of self confidence.

Cindy: 17:25

Yes. Yes.

Hoyt: 17:26

and, and so I don't, I don't see any gaps there in terms of whether she can get to that place where she really feels it. But I'm really interested in How do you start to understand your weaknesses and who's going to tell you these things, right?

Cindy: 17:45

here's the great thing. That voice in our head's always telling us those things. I mean, that voice in our head knows our weaknesses and it tells us a story about, say we meet a clerk and they're snippy with us. We have a, first of all, we have an uncharitable story about the clerk, but really underneath that is an uncharitable story about ourselves. and when we recognize what that uncharitable story is about ourself, whether you know, I, I always irritate people when I'm doing something or whatever it is, We're aware and sometimes that dark side, we don't want to face, but truthfully the most beautiful bit of news I can share about weaknesses is that our strengths and our weaknesses are woven from the same cloth. Our strengths are the beautiful tapestry and our weaknesses are the threads behind and sometimes our strengths hurt us you know, Julie mentioned that she is strong willed. That's great when you're determined about something. But that can be really hard in a relationship too. know, and really hard if you're so determined about what you're looking for that you overlook other things that could be really valuable.

Hoyt: 18:57

in that previous clip that we heard, she made a statement about wanting to find a partner in crime. And I know that that's, a phrase that people will use all the time, but it's kind of meaningless. and I am not sure I know what she was trying to articulate with that.

Cindy: 19:15

Yeah, I thought that was an interesting concept. And in talking to her, I What she really wants is someone who's spontaneous and is willing to try different activities. You know, she talked about going to festivals and also going to fancy events and reading and, and the simplicity of just being together and, um, partnering crime, I think means someone that she could have fun with. and we all want that. So how do we express that? I've heard men say, you know, women always says she loves to laugh on a profile. Who doesn't love to laugh? What does that mean? Or you're looking for a sense of humor. What does that mean? It's different for different people. one thing that she told me was that she loves dad jokes. And I thought, well, that's really interesting because that means that kind of humor is different than. Someone who wants really sort of, uh, you know, gallows humor about things and sees things funny, even in morbid. and I think a really good way to put that on your profile is to think about, how am I going to present that? How am I going to say, I want a sense of humor? Well, you got to be humorous and maybe something she could do, which we talked about was to put on her profile, send me your best dad joke.

Hoyt: 20:33

Uh huh.

Cindy: 20:33

It gives you conversation and engaging. And, and it also says without saying. I want someone humorous, that she's humorous and that she likes to laugh, So I think, uh, recognize that some of the things are cliche, whether it's, wanting someone who's fun and funny or wanting a partner in crime is really maybe wanting someone who likes to try different things or be spontaneous.

Hoyt: 20:55

Because otherwise it's in the category of I like walks on the beach, right? That kind of

Cindy: 20:59

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Hoyt: 21:01

course, who doesn't like walks on the beach, right?

Cindy: 21:04

Right. Well, he doesn't like sand, maybe, but, but I don't think that would be, Something that would make someone swipe right or left walks on the beach.

Hoyt: 21:13

So help me contextualize, Cindy, this challenge of facing your own, what you understand to be weaknesses. What you internally understand or believe to be. a weakness and getting okay with that to the point where you don't feel like you have to either hide it

Cindy: 21:35

Right.

Hoyt: 21:36

or you don't feel like you, have to overcompensate for that somehow. for example, if you're carrying an extra 15 or 20 pounds on you, right.

Cindy: 21:48

Right. Right.

Hoyt: 21:49

You know, part of that voice in your head is going to say, nobody's going to want me.

Cindy: 21:53

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Hoyt: 21:55

But, somebody will. Somebody does want you. And probably just the way you are. Uh

Cindy: 22:01

Exactly. Exactly. I think those things mean so much more to us when we start putting ourselves out there and marketing ourselves and we see our weaknesses and yet accepting that We all come in different shapes and sizes and are beautiful and are accepted. I think the weaknesses sometimes come from a voice in our past telling us that's not okay. Like did we have a mom who was critical of us and wanted to, you know, make sure we didn't, you know, show our arms and we have that voice like this isn't acceptable and yet Maybe our mom forgot to tell us how beautiful our smile is or our waist or, you know, other parts about us that are beautiful. So really taking a look at yourself and saying, this is what I have to offer. and some of these weaknesses have protected me in the past. Sometimes our weaknesses, when we really examine what they provide us. I don't believe people have parts of themselves that are harmful unless they've provided a protection of some sort, what benefit they've offered. Once we can understand, the benefit of a weakness, we can decide if it's really serving us and then really come to accept ourselves. We can accept our weaknesses and it doesn't mean that we don't work on them, right? But we don't have to be something we're not.

Hoyt: 23:23

Well, you know, part of the makeover process in preparing your marketing brochure,

Cindy: 23:29

Yes. Yes.

Hoyt: 23:30

is making sure that you are authentically putting your best foot forward. forward. And if, for example, nobody taught you how to do your hair, right? If that was just not part of your world. Or, you know, the thing that came up for me when you were just talking about that was, boy, yes, there are all these voices from, childhood that are probably in there telling you why you're not good enough. But for many people who have been in a long term relationship. You're getting some negative voices that from a former spouse, right?

Cindy: 24:07

Right. Right.

Hoyt: 24:09

That you have internalized because you don't really have any choice. I mean, you haven't really looked at, is there a basis in reality for that?

Cindy: 24:19

That's such an, that's such an important component, that we look at and it's a big part of my work as a therapist is we challenge those thoughts. Like, is that thought true? Is it helping or hurting me? And how can I argue that thought? What evidence do I have that that thought is true? What do I want to do about that thought and whose voice is it?

Hoyt: 24:41

So Julie also talked about her earlier dating experience. And I'd like to listen to some of this and let's talk about diagnosing, if we can, what she was doing right or wrong in those kind of situations.

Julie: 24:57

When you are always using the same tool sometimes you outgrow it. Not everything needs a hammer. So I'm ready to start with some pliers, some screwdrivers and see what other things are in my tool bag. I love the jigsaw. I have been on Tinder. I have been on Rumble and I've been on OkCupid. One of the things I liked about OKCupid was the ability to answer a lot of questions and see how much someone meshed with you. Sometimes the quality of the people weren't what I was looking. Tinder was probably the biggest quantity of people. You had to do a lot of swiping. You just keep going and going and going and they're like, Oh, okay. I'll stop for a moment, look at this one. I found that there was just a sheer volume of people who were in my age range. With Bumble, I found a higher quality of people, however, it's harder to sift through and find What I'm looking for. I found that they didn't have as many filters as some of the others. I would be on for a day, and I'd go through 50 to 100, and it was overwhelming. And the majority of the ones that I saw were not any that I would be interested in. I did try the Lee Weber There were not a lot of subscribers in the city that I live in, so you would go on, but it would be only a few people that you would actually discover. I could never find what I was looking in on any of the sites, because what I'm finding is all what I'm looking for. But the highest quality person I met was on Bumble. I'm looking now to find someone that this is a priority to them, not just experimenting, so they are willing to invest. And I want somebody that I can build a future with. I am open to Bumble because it gives me the opportunity to speak first. And I do like having the empowerment.

Hoyt: 27:03

I want to explore her expectation setting around this because she doesn't want to recreate the experiences that she's had in the past. She wants a different experience here. And it seems to me, Cindy, that A lot of this has to do with expectations, is your assessment that maybe she was putting too much into the expectations of what was gonna come out?

Cindy: 27:32

100%. And we talked about that and she was so open to reconsidering. So when you have such a volume of people who are interested, it is hard to sift through it all, but you know, as we've said before, it, it takes time. But what. What is worth doing that doesn't take time, right? What is worth having that doesn't take time? And so, uh, some of the things that would have caused her to swipe left, she was missing out on. One of the things in particular, and I've talked to, a lot of women, and realized myself that, You don't have to swipe left on a guy that's got a fish picture. So something about, men in their 50s, a lot of them, 40s and 50s, have a lot of fish pictures in their profile. And, um, what I came to realize was, oh, they're not the selfie generation. They don't have pictures of themselves. They're not sitting there snapping a bunch of pictures of themselves. And they have a picture that their friends took them when they were out fishing. And look at this fish I caught.

Hoyt: 28:31

And I'm smiling, right?

Cindy: 28:34

And so we can tell ourselves, uh, uh, you know, not another fish picture. Or we can tell ourselves, well, that's a guy who, who would benefit from a professional photographer. And also isn't so into selfies. I think maybe an easier parameter is the guy shirtless in a bathroom mirror with the toilet seat open behind him. Um, And that's, you know, that's fine for some people, but we talked a lot about, what things that she had decided were not okay. And one of them was someone who doesn't have kids because they wouldn't understand parenting. And, and we sort of revisited that, whether that's a reality or not. And, and realize that. It may not be reality. That may not be worth swiping left. So the good news is she realized that some of her things that she was dismissing potential partners over, uh, didn't have to be dismissals. The bad thing is that didn't help her narrow down the hundred profiles.

Hoyt: 29:40

Yeah.

Cindy: 29:41

I think it's so much more important to have a phone conversation. You learn so much more by actually meeting someone in person. And we talked about that, um, and how she can kind of tell, you know, when you meet someone and there's just an energy we exude and a, a way of bantering that's different than the online banter. I always advise people to meet someone right away. Someone that has some potential don't spend more than a couple of messages or a couple of days say, let's meet for an hour. I've got an hour for coffee. Meet me here. And, and then you can say, okay, is this someone I want to continue to chat with? Um, is this someone I would be friends with?

Hoyt: 30:19

Well, and you learn so much more, you learn so much more in person than you could ever learn from a profile, right? Somebody might be Just a whiz at putting their marketing brochure together, but the product doesn't support the brochure, right?

Cindy: 30:41

Yeah. And then you have, you oversell and you have returns. No one wants that.

Hoyt: 30:45

And it works, it works the other way too, right?

Cindy: 30:48

Exactly. Exactly. If we don't, if we don't put some parts out there about ourselves, I think, when people consider online dating, they think that's meeting your partner, but really that's just introductions. If we all could walk around in the world with a bracelet that says, um, single and looking for partner. Single and looking for a hookup.

Hoyt: 31:10

Uh huh.

Cindy: 31:11

It would be so much easier because we could, we could see that. So what we get when we're online is a plethora of people who are looking for someone, whether it's a hookup or just casual dating or a partner. And so when we read their profile, that's just an opportunity to decide, huh, don't want to meet this person and see if we'd be friends. Not, Oh, this person, this person doesn't have kids, so they won't be the partner for me.

Hoyt: 31:35

Uh huh. Well, it's interesting, isn't it, Cindy, that maybe the best approach is this hybrid of two things. One is that widen the net

Cindy: 31:45

Widen the net.

Hoyt: 31:46

and be more selective. You can do both of those things, right?

Cindy: 31:50

Oh, exactly. I love that idea. And I think that if we're not willing to put out a net that's going to cast wide, we're going to miss some opportunities. Now, one thing she said was she talked about the league was there weren't as many people in her area. And I think we have to be aware that. different dating sites might be stronger in one area. When I was, dating, Coffee Meets Bagel was pretty new. Um, but in our part of the world, there weren't a lot of people on that. Um, but I met some quality people and, and so someone new to dating online and depending on where they're located may want to try a few all at the same time. There's nothing wrong with that.

Hoyt: 32:29

Uh huh. Uh

Cindy: 32:30

We have more than one, one profile up there to see, what is providing, as Julie said, quality matches in your area.

Hoyt: 32:39

Right. Because, I mean, one site might be just the perfect site for you if you were living in New York City, but if you're in Topeka, Kansas It's it's something completely different. I mean, I don't know what it would be in Topeka, Kansas, but

Cindy: 32:54

Thanks. But something, there are going to be some people there that you're going to resonate with. And, and that's good. And, you know, a lot of people are afraid to try Tinder because they say it's a hookup match site, but just put on your profile. I'm not here for a hookup. I did Tinder for a while and, and that's what I did. And I met people who were also not looking for hookup, but that's okay, you know,

Hoyt: 33:16

yeah, I mean people choose the sites for a lot of reasons and Chief among them tends to be what somebody recommended to you, right? Or what you've read about.

Cindy: 33:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Hoyt: 33:27

there's no scientific research that's going into that for most people that put up a profile. Yeah,

Cindy: 33:33

And they're always changing and adjusting. I mean, a good, a good dating site knows that, you know, you adjust according to the market and, and what's working. one thing I did like about Bumble and Julie mentioned this was that, the woman gets to decide if she's going to reach out. One of the really hard things for me, especially in the early phases of online dating, uh, some of the other sites. There would be, you know, men reaching out to me that were, I was not at all interested in. And I, like my heart would feel so tender. I, I, you know, I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And, and then, you know, that's where we get into corresponding with someone that then we're taking time with someone we don't really want to be with because we're trying to be kind, right. Or ghosting someone. And then, you know, they may be offended. I had one man that, um, was really upset that I just didn't respond. And, and I just, Authentically wrote back and said, you know, I, I don't mean to be rude and I'm sorry that that hurt your feelings. And I didn't know how to say, I don't think we're fit. So I'm just going to say, I don't think we're fit. And thank you for being honest. It's. It's much easier. It was much easier for me on Bumble to say, okay, I want to converse with this person. And for the upgraded app features, they're not that expensive and they're worth it. And that way, when I was on Bumble, I could see who already had liked my profile.

Hoyt: 34:52

Well, one of the interesting things that that Julie mentioned that I don't have a clip of here is the difference between paying for the premium version of an app versus free. And it comes in two flavors here, right? One is, I want person that I'm matching with to be serious enough about what this process is. That they're not just, you know, you know, casually out there saying, well, maybe there's somebody, you know, that they've are exhibiting a commitment to it, at least by paying the 20 a month or whatever

Cindy: 35:29

Yeah, yeah,

Hoyt: 35:29

fee is. And then there's the side of saying, my paying for it should serve as evidence that, yes, I'm serious, regardless of the additional features. That you get. Do you, do you have advice around that? Particularly in, in Julie's case?

Cindy: 35:45

I do. And it's interesting because my thought when I first started online dating was like, well, if he can't afford to pay the fee or is too cheap to pay the fees, that's someone I want to be with. And yet then I was, on sites where, you know, you didn't have to pay because they have ads. I mean, a lot of really quality people who that was not the case. However, I think that there is truth. There are some people that are just on there, you know, forever. I, I, uh, you know, uh, 10 years after starting the whole online dating, I'll talk to friends who are single and they'll show me a picture of someone. I was like, Oh, that's Jason. Yeah. He's been on the He's been on there since I first started looking. We never met. You will never meet him. Same picture, same pink shirt. Yeah, it all looks good. All looks good.

Hoyt: 36:32

He's a lifer.

Cindy: 36:33

So he's a lifer, and maybe a lifer doesn't want to pay the 20 a month, right? So that could be a good barometer, but it doesn't have to be the only thing you look at.

Hoyt: 36:43

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Cindy: 36:44

I, I agree definitely with what Julie was saying, and I want to say, and Not always.

Hoyt: 36:50

I want to talk about, how Julie should be framing her expectations of this experience. Because I remember in conversations that you and I have had on this show that one of your, gems of a piece of advice was to just treat this as I'm getting an opportunity to meet people and I'm getting an opportunity to learn about myself in the process.

Cindy: 37:15

Yes.

Hoyt: 37:17

I want to do that, but I want to play this little clip of Julie talking about really what it is that she's looking for and then we'll dig into it.

Julie: 37:25

It's very important to me that we have similar backgrounds, both culturally, as well as socioeconomically. I have worked hard. I am a professional. I expect someone that can stand up to me and stand beside me. Someone that can walk beside me financially, emotionally, and fiscally. I've supported two men in my life. And I have. I've spent a lot of my time caring for other people, both emotionally and physically, as well as financially. I'm unwilling to do that again. I'm from a family, reading was a passion. I was an English major, and I want someone that is both well spoken and well read. I want someone that is interested in reading, that wants to expand their mind. and can show me things I haven't seen before. That's part of the curiosity, both intellectual and about the world. I love plays, music. I love going to festivals. I think that art and music and theater enrich our lives so much. And I need someone that has that same passion. Those are very important qualities to me. I have been very guarded in my life. I am a very private person, and so I want to have the ability to be vulnerable, pull down my walls, because I think that if you keep those walls up, nobody gets to see inside. And so I'd make somebody try to climb over those walls before they ever saw where they were going. That wasn't really fair. So I, I guess I'm willing to, to take some chances. By being so guarded and, and. Standoffish, in a sense. I didn't allow someone to see who I was, words and all. So they couldn't discern if I was what they were looking for.

Hoyt: 39:27

There are two pieces of that that I found fascinating. One is that it seemed like when she was initially describing these attributes of the ideal partner that she might be veering into unicorn territory, right? Is that, okay, if they have to have this and they have to enjoy reading the same things that I enjoy reading you're going to find every excuse to flip somebody back in the pool as quickly as possible. And yet in the second half of that clip. that's where it almost contradicted what she said in the beginning. So, what was your take on that?

Cindy: 40:09

I thought this was so interesting. one of the things we need to be aware of, and Julie and I talked about some people that she dated in her history that she likes, but one of the things I notice is we are so willing to, flinch at red flags or what we think red flags are. And yet we need to be just as aware of green flags. If we think there's a green flag on that profile, and that makes sense Is that our person? Hmm. How much, how much weight are we putting on that? if he's talking about how he likes plays and how he's had a lot of success in business and, and it's sounding like, Oh, he likes all the same things I like. How much are we overlooking? and creating a story about them. humans are meaning making machines. We're always creating a story. And when we read a profile, it's really easy to create a story about that person. I remember the very first person, that I met went online dating, I had this whole story about him. I mean, there was one photo where he looked like, you know, Aristotle Onassis and he had lived overseas. And I was like, Oh, great. I overlooked. Some of the other pictures that I later realized, Oh, that really told more of a story. He was standing with his motorcycle and his buddies. And, and that was really important to him. And when we met in person, I thought, Oh yeah, I misunderstood the sales ad because I had created a whole story around it. So we'll see a green flag and we create a whole story that may not be the real person. And. We will possibly date them and give a lot of time to them before we really realize, Oh wait, that's not who I thought it was. So, I say beware of green flags

Hoyt: 41:51

mean, you know, we're natural storytellers cindy So, I mean that's how we make sense of the world

Cindy: 41:57

Right.

Hoyt: 41:58

as human beings, right? We create these stories, but as you pointed out that can put barriers in your way to really getting to know someone and understanding it. how do you advise men and women to catch that thought and reframe that experience for themselves?

Cindy: 42:18

I think again, like challenging our thoughts. Okay. So what am I making this mean about this person? And how am I going to really kind of catch myself when we're, um, When we really meet and feel like, can I be friends with this person? to constantly, challenge the stories we create in our head about ourselves and about other people. you know, Julie was talking about really what she wanted from someone else. And we have to be, I think, very aware of that. what we sound like when we're saying that we, that culture is really important to me and plays and reading. And, I've supported two men and I don't want to do that. And maybe, you know, another way to look at that is. I can support myself. I feel good about where I am financially. I want someone that feels good about where he is financially and that we can share our lives together. and maybe not even having to write a whole bunch about liking plays and things. But, one thing Julie and I talked about was she loves reading. So how about the first meet be at a bookstore? How comfortable is he at the bookstore? And then maybe after you've gotten to know him a little and lots of conversations and a couple of meets, buy tickets to a play. Say, come to this play with me. See how comfortable he is there. That's how we really can kind of assess, does this person fit in my life? Instead of creating the story and saying, well, you know, we hung out at the bar with his buddies and then we went to a barbecue and, we've had so much fun and three months down the road. You wonder why you're never going to place.

Hoyt: 43:50

that's a really good point, Cindy. It feels like she's really not locked into this. She's just got this idea that in a perfect world, I would find somebody that enjoys all the same things that I do. That I enjoy, but, and we had talked about this earlier, it's really about finding somebody that is open and curious, If they're open and curious to why you're passionate about the theater, That's probably good enough.

Cindy: 44:22

right. And, and why are you passionate about theater? What does that mean to you? What is it? What is it like? What do you love about going to the theater? And you can share that with them. I think that it's, and you had mentioned this, that learning about others and learning about ourselves is such a great opportunity. being single at this age has some fears for people, but gosh, think of the opportunities we have to meet more people and learn other things. Learning something about an interest that you may not have had and, and why that means something to the person you're dating. Wow. Thinking about opens up our world to lots of new things.

Hoyt: 45:01

And so, that gets back to the reframing of the expectations. It feels like walking into that first meeting, the less that you can lead with the question in your own mind of is this my person

Cindy: 45:18

Right.

Hoyt: 45:18

rather than is this an interesting person? Is this someone that might fit in my life whether it's a friend or whether a lover, right? But if you're leading with the question of um, I'm measuring everything at every single moment against whether you are a potential life partner for me, that's a pretty high bar,

Cindy: 45:42

And it's so awkward. It's so awkward. I love the idea that we're just meeting a friend. And I know that you and I both had experiences with our online dating where we met a lot of interesting people and we didn't have a lot of scary stories and stuff. And, and I, I'm grateful for that. Um, and I think a part of that is the excitement of meeting people who may be different. And yeah, is this a person I want to spend more time with? Do I enjoy them? if we're putting it out there, and even if we're putting it out there in a profile that we're looking for a life partner, someone to grow old with, that can be intimidating to some people in the same way. If we put out there, Oh, I'm only looking for fun and no commitment. We all know people who maybe dated somebody that said, you know, they dated forever and he was unwilling to commit. And the next relationship he married,

Hoyt: 46:34

right?

Cindy: 46:35

someone who may. Think that they're only dating, to have a good time may find that they feel differently when there's someone that they really grow to care about. Um, again, having too many filters as we're swiping is really hard. Having an open mind to meeting people and learning about people is so much more valuable at this stage of the game.

Hoyt: 46:57

Cindy, You and I. have known each other for years, not because we met online when we were dating, but because of the community that we both built in ways that were connected to, to that experience, right? So who could have predicted those kinds of paths? And if you aren't curious enough to say, Hey, if I'm, I'm going to go and have a good time, I'm going to meet a new person. And I don't know what path is in front of me with this person, but I don't need to.

Cindy: 47:27

I don't need to. I get to explore. Because so much of that, you know, Hoyt, we have this list of things we want in a partner. And it doesn't matter what age we are. We all have this idea. and it usually starts from, when we're teenagers, at least for girls. Ah, this is, you know, this is what I want my dream man to be. And then we meet someone. There's chemistry and we connect. That list goes out the window.

Hoyt: 47:53

yeah,

Cindy: 47:53

So with that, I think it's so important to be flexible and also to know what really, really is important. What really, really is my values so that chemistry doesn't overshadow some of that, but that also we allow some of the things that we thought were so important to take a back seat.

Hoyt: 48:13

and that gets back to the whole idea of looking at this experience of online dating as a way to get to know yourself better. And that's, that's kind of where Julie is. I mean, we, All should be looking at those experiences in that way because that's the one thing that you can take away with you even from a meeting that didn't go as you were hoping it would. Even though you perceive a rejection, right? You still learn something about yourself and that's a gift.

Cindy: 48:45

Yeah. we are always. We're always reinventing ourselves. If we look back, we have many different lives. And one of my favorite quotes is by George Eliot, who said, it's never too late to be what you might've been. How do we know that if we don't keep trying and don't keep being curious? Curious about the world. Curious about people. Curious about ourselves. You know, of course, that's easy for me to say. I, you know, social scientists at heart, I find people so fascinating and want to get to know them. But I think if we take that open curiosity in meeting people, not only for who's this person and what makes them who they are, but who am I and how am I showing up in this? What do I know about myself now?

Hoyt: 49:24

Julie's journey as we go forward. But let's wrap up talking about what else she needs to do pre game, So we have an episode coming up on some of the basics of building that marketing brochure, particularly as they have to do with, Julie's strengths and her weaknesses. Um, but let's, let's go back and just talk about what else Julie should be doing before she pushes the button to say, all right, Bumble, here's my profile. Bumble.

Cindy: 49:59

Yeah. So I think for anyone, entering the dating world, or even when we're Having a resume for a job, I think we, like we talked about, we assess what our strengths and our weaknesses are. And then we figure out what weaknesses really do I have control over that don't need to be weaknesses. Sometimes, we talked about, if someone has. A little extra weight. Okay. So how do you present yourself in the best light? I mean, are you someone who already knows how to dress for your figure? Or are you someone that could use a little advice in that? And guess what? We don't have to be experts at everything. Specialization and exchange. There are people who are really good at that. how would we want to look? And I think there can be a real resistance to the visual aspect and resisting thinking that we're marketing ourselves. But if all there is is a picture before someone even reads the words you write about yourself, why not look like your best self?

Hoyt: 50:57

Yeah.

Cindy: 50:57

and of course, we talked about understanding your patterns and understanding why you chose what you chose in the past, how it worked for you and how it didn't, and maybe how to create something new.

Hoyt: 51:09

Well, I can't wait to see how this unfolds in front of us, Cindy. This is going to be fascinating. the next episode that we do on this will be that episode that focuses on building the profile, on doing the things about how you put your best self out there. forward, how you represent yourself online. And then, frankly, I can't wait to, see what's going to happen when she actually gets out into the real world. And I appreciate Julie's openness to sharing those experiences, the positive and the negative with us.

Cindy: 51:40

Yes. and I have to say, she is lovely. She's lovely to talk to. I'm so glad she's willing to do this because she's open and curious and she is open to saying, huh, maybe that wasn't, wasn't in my best interest when I tried this before. I'm looking forward to it. And I know we're going to have to, be willing to pivot because who knows what this is going to bring.

Hoyt: 52:00

Exactly right. I mean, it may be a short series. Maybe she meets Mr. Wright on the first date.

Cindy: 52:06

Right, right. That would be a great follow up series down the road. How's that going? And what did you learn? Yeah.

Hoyt: 52:14

So, Cindy, before we go you've got a new group that you're putting together. I want you to talk about what that is because it's right in line with everything we've been talking about today.

Cindy: 52:24

Oh, I am so excited about it. so I've been, leading a group for women going through divorce or contemplating divorce or post divorce that are still working through the kinks. And that's a support group. And, it is, The most satisfying part of my job that hour and a half a week where those women get together because I really see growth. It's so satisfying to see someone coming in from a state of brokenness to then feeling independent and ready to move on. And so I realized we need Like, okay, now you're ready to move on. What's next? And I believe in intentional living. One of the best compliments I ever got was from my mother in law who said, Cindy lives more intentionally than anyone I've ever met. And I thought about it and I thought, wow, yeah, that's awesome. Let's, let's live intentionally. What do we want? How do we build that life? How do we discover who we are? And, uh, there's so many things we're going to explore. This is a small group. It's going to be very small and intimate and it's in person. So, you know, if someone in Atlanta is interested, reach out right away because it's, it will fill up and then we'll just have a waiting list. I'm very excited about it and to see the growth that then comes

Hoyt: 53:35

Oh, and you're the perfect person for that, Cindy. I so appreciate you and I appreciate your being here and being part of Julie's journey with us.

Cindy: 53:43

Uh, I really appreciate being included in this. I enjoy this and it's, going to be a really fun one Hoyt. Thanks for asking me.

Hoyt: 53:53

As we wrap up today's enlightening conversation. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Cindy hopper for joining us today and sharing her invaluable insights, Cindy, your expertise, not only sheds light on the complexities of dating, but also helps us understand the deeper emotional currents. That drive our behaviors and relationships. Today we delved into the art of pre-gaming your dating profile, the importance of self-awareness. And the psychological underpinnings that can shape our dating experiences. We've started to unpack the layers of what makes online, dating both a challenge and a thrilling opportunity for personal growth. I'm excited about this series and I hope you are too. We're just at the beginning of Julie's journey and there's so much more to come. In a future episode, we'll dive into the specifics of building a standout dating profile for Julie. Thinking about not just the aesthetics, but the authenticity. Uh, presenting oneself online. So, whether you're revisiting the dating scene or curious about the stories, it can tell. Stay tuned. There's a wealth of insight and maybe even a bit of inspiration waiting for us As we followed Julie's path to discovering love and perhaps a bit about ourselves along the way. Until next time. I keep embracing your journey with openness and courage. Remember every swipe. Every date. Every conversation. Teaches us something valuable. Here at behind this wipe, we're not just looking for love. We're discovering how to love better live fully and connect deeply. We'll see you back here for the next episode. Until then. Swipe fearlessly.