Hoyt: 0:06

Welcome to this week's episode of behind the swipe, where we peel back the layers of online dating and relationships, Especially for those of us a bit more seasoned in life's adventures. In today's episode. Talk it out. Don't tough it out. We dive into the pivotal moments early in the relationship when the honeymoon phase wanes and we encounter what I like to call the glitch. You know that first argument misunderstanding or miscommunication that can often feel like a tiny crack in the windshield threatening to spiderweb across the smooth surface. Of our budding relationship. I had the pleasure of sitting down with therapist, Armann Fenger. A man who brings not only professional insight, but also personal empathy to the table. Together. We tackled the often unspoken fears that can turn these glitches into deal-breakers. And how early stage couples can navigate these choppy waters with grace and compassion. Armann shared, invaluable perspectives on the different ways fear manifests itself in men and women influenced by societal expectations and personal upbringing. He challenged the wisdom of that age, old adage That men are often supposed to tough it out. Advocating instead for open communication for using more words, not fewer to bridge the gaps misunderstandings can create. Listen, as we delve into stories and strategies that aluminate the importance of empathy, understanding and patience in the art of communication. We explore not only how to weather, the initial storms of a relationship. But how to emerge stronger. More connected. And ready to face what comes next. Hand-in-hand. I am here with Arman Finger. Arman is a therapist here in the Atlanta area. Arman, I'm thrilled to have you here. Look, I love this because you and I are two guys. We come at this from the perspective of men. And so often topics in this world of online dating are well covered by a number of women. But now we get to kind of talk man to man about this. And I'm really looking forward to it. So welcome Arman.

Armann: 2:27

Thank you so much. I really appreciate being here. It's an honor.

Hoyt: 2:30

let's dig in by starting in on a topic that has popped up in a number of the episodes that we've done. And that is, you're online dating, you've met somebody, this feels really good, you know, you've got the dopamine rush going on and everything's perfect. And then at some point in time, that might be a week, that might be a month. into the relationship. you hit what I call the glitch, And the glitch is that first argument, disagreement, miscommunication. So, I'd like to dig down into that because I know that you've got a lot of ideas and tools to help people avoid that becoming destructive to the relationship. So, let's kind of play that out.

Armann: 3:19

Absolutely. it's important part of the relationship because the, in the beginning, when the honeymoon phase of it, it's all good. We put our best foot forward and we may even, see things that are kind of irritating or annoying, but it's okay. We're, we're working on it. But the glitch is really when the fear goes above a certain level. And that's really the underlying issue, the fear. And often we tend to clam up, don't use enough words or assume, and then things go badly. So when we use more words, when we talk it out, we have a chance to avoid some of those assumptions and, those glitches become less of an issue.

Hoyt: 4:00

So, when you see this fear manifest itself. how does that look? And is it different for men versus women in your experience?

Armann: 4:11

Absolutely. there's differences for sure. we think differently and we talk differently and we're also taught differently. My, my tagline in my practice is talk it out, don't tough it up. And that comes from, uh, you know, how we men have been taught, tough it out. You know, if it's not broken, don't come talk to me. If it's not bleeding, it's okay. if you can't deal with it logically, just suppress it. So tough it out. But these emotions, they don't have any value in our lives. This is what we were taught growing up and where a lot of women, most women in our taught. emotions are super healthy and there, you should talk about it and you feel better if you do, and we, uh, we even were saw it on TV with, uh, you know, grunting and yeah, you know, but this is us as men. And, uh, so fear definitely comes out differently because, we men in general, don't have as much experience with dealing with it.

Hoyt: 5:03

So I don't know if you've got a scenario because I, I know you've got a ton of stories, Armin. So I'm looking forward to hearing some of those, but if you have a story of a couple that you're aware of that might have come into this conflict. I know that there are, there are horror stories where, hey, that just, I'm out the door, right? I mean, that just set off stuff for me, and obviously this is not going to work, I was wrong, so I'm out of here, right? Um, let's help people get to the other side of that by even taking, an example that we're creating here. and talk about what kind of a problem they might run into, and their fears, and then how they might begin to step through that.

Armann: 5:51

So I know of one couple they're in the beginning of the relationship and each of them had, things that they needed to kind of tie up in order to kind of get their finances together. And, the woman in the relationship was highly anxious and avoidant. And the man who talked to, he's like, why won't you just do this? Just, just do it. Call the number and just talk to the guy. And for the woman, it's like, there's too enormous amount of anxiety and fear around the phone call. So she avoided it and avoided it and avoided it. And all the man can think of is like, well, if she's just called today, then things will be solved. And she would save so much money. Why can't you just call? And didn't take in count the amount of anxiety that she was suffering and the type of coping skills she was using. So it's not just do it. It's, There's a lot of anxiety that needs to be overcome.

Hoyt: 6:39

And so with that particular couple, was someone present enough in that to recognize that this is going off?

Armann: 6:46

So I basically told the guy, I said, listen, you're dealing with anxiety, not logic. He's like, what do you mean? You just call the number. Well, before you can call the number, it's about being comfortable enough to call the number. It's about being comfortable to deal with the fear of being able to talk to the guy. And, and the gentleman was, was like, Oh, Oh, and I tried to process, wait, This, this emotions have impact on our logic. I was like, a lot of, a lot of impact. In fact, emotions are probably stronger than our logic. Oh, and then the empathy came in and the more patience came in and he came up with a couple of ideas that helped his girlfriend, be better able to call the number and take care of the situation.

Hoyt: 7:33

So is that one of the important first steps is finding that place of, of empathy and not going into whatever reactive mode that's, from your history and background.

Armann: 7:45

yes, it's one of the biggest things I try to help men is recognizing there's logic and then there's emotions. Emotions are more powerful, but there are two things happening at the same time. And helping and fixing and supporting isn't just helping the story or the logic is really supporting the emotion and being aware of it. And most importantly, communicate it.

Hoyt: 8:07

So for men in their forties, fifties, and sixties, this logic driven modus operandi has been embedded in who they are for so long. I'm guessing that it's really hard for them to recognize that there's any other operating system.

Armann: 8:26

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, they, they come, they work all day and they've had a career. So a long career so far and they say, all right, I mean, it works at work where I tell this guy to do this and that and the other. It's just, it just goes, but why doesn't it work at home? I use the same strategies and, at work there's much more logic and reason. And, you can't necessarily have these long emotional conversations at a workplace that can be done more personal. But at home, emotions are very much part of the interactions and the relationship. And they're a very, very powerful part.

Hoyt: 9:00

Well, I, and I would guess that especially, if a man particularly has been in work mode where there is a structured hierarchy, right? Where if he's communicating with his employees, it's not necessarily, and I'm asking you to do this. I'm not asking, I'm, I'm telling you, I need this. Done. And that doesn't work so well in a romantic relationship, does it?

Armann: 9:27

No, not at all. the power differential is huge. We're in a relationship, we're equals. We have different needs and different, thoughts but we're equals. We're just as important. So, being able to, support each other is important rather than, manage each other. And at work, we manage. And at home, we need to support and, and be kind.

Hoyt: 9:47

All right, so put yourself in this hypothetical woman's shoes where the guy is just being hardcore logical and analytical

Armann: 9:59

Yeah.

Hoyt: 9:59

and does not see that you've got a lot of anxiety around this particular action that in his mind is simple, right? This is a simple solution. You just do it.

Armann: 10:11

Yeah.

Hoyt: 10:12

What can she do? to safely communicate that and, break through that wall of, of logic with him.

Armann: 10:21

Definitely communicate. my wife calls it roadmaps, where, you know, I, for her to expect the man to, to understand exactly what she's thinking and feeling, it's, unrealistic. And if it does, that's great, but if it doesn't happen, then being able to give them the answer, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm needing, this is a listening conversation, rather than a problem solving conversation. This really helps me when you, when you listen, rather than just tell me what to do. It frustrates me when you, this happens or that happens. And it can be details. Uh, there was this one couple that, that they were really, they were so close to communicating well, but there was just small things that happened. And, the, one of the things that became a trigger was the guy was trying to be supportive and said, honey, you deserve a break. You've worked a long time and honey, you deserve this or deserve that. And apparently that was a trigger word for her from when she was a kid. And she was really irritated at the word deserve. It's like, I earned it. I don't deserve it. I earned it. So all that frustration from work in the outside of the house turned and went straight at the, at the man because he used that word deserve. And when we figured that out, we found other words and then that became an area where they can work better together, but it took enormous amount of communication It's reflecting to be able to say, you know, honey, it's this word deserve. I appreciate what you're doing, but the word deserves not, it's really making me angry. Can we find another word? And then when they did good things happen.

Hoyt: 11:54

people that end up coming into your practice, I'm guessing, have gone pretty far down that. So it's, it's more rough and tumble than just, I, I didn't understand you had anxiety around it. It can be much more complicated. But if we're looking back and we're focusing on what can people in early stage relationships begin to do that allows them to show their partner a better way.

Armann: 12:23

Yeah. There's called the love languages, five love languages. And, it's a physical touch. Words of affirmation, gestures, gifts and quality time. These are the, there's this, they, there's this phenomenal, if you do one of these things, you fill up your love tank. So being able to understand, okay, what, what drives me, what makes me feel loved, what irritates me and what just, I can't stand, are great things to talk about because then you don't have to redo Old mistakes, old things that didn't work and be able to share, how do I feel loved? And then vice versa, how do you feel loved? And, I've had a couple that, were struggling with this part where, I tried to introduce this concept and the husband wanted physical touch and the wife wanted, acts of service. But she went home, cleaned the house, cooked dinner, took care of everything. And she was exhausted because she worked so hard. And he came home from work and all he wanted to hug, but she was so exhausted. There was no hugs. And they were like, this isn't working. What are you talking about? So I was like, okay, he wants a hug. So don't clean the house. Just give him a hug. And then to him, I was like, all right, when you come home, help with the dishes, do extra service. They're like, Oh, and then next time we saw each other, they had big smiles. This is awesome. This is great. And then he just smiled and said, she hugs me all the time. This is wonderful.

Hoyt: 13:44

So Armin, step back for a moment here, because your career, in, in doing what you do and working with relationships and couples, was something that you had come to, I don't want to say later in life because you're still a young man, but this is not something you've been doing for 30 years. What, what was it that made you so interested? in this kind of service that, drove you into becoming a therapist.

Armann: 14:13

Yeah. I've always been a sensitive person and, fortunately had people around me that supported me and were kind and loving, and encouraged me to, to kind of follow my journey. but, being sensitive back when I was younger, it wasn't always the, acceptable or a cool thing to be or do. So it was a little bit, it was tricky, uh, uh, not understanding what the, all these, those emotions were. and I didn't have a therapist. So it was a little bit of a bumpy ride, but I found a outlet in helping kids. And when I graduated college, I started a nonprofit company that helped kids. And a lot of them were, uh, special needs like autistic. And I got to understand the basic. The basic communications, because we had to really break down into simple steps, how to communicate and how to interact and how to connect with people who have a hard time doing that. And through that, I had to deal with a ton of parents and each of them come with their own issues. And sometimes the couples didn't see eye to eye. And that was interesting to me because then I had to think about communication a whole different way, not just for kids, but for adults. And then when eventually I just became a full time therapist, being a parent, being in relationship is super interesting. I love it. I love talking about it. I can think about it and talk about it all day. And I'm just really drawn to, uh, this type of work, this type of thinking. And as I get to practice at our home as well, my wife and I are very proactive, very thoughtful about how we do things. And it's, it feels great. And I just really want to, be able to share this experience with, with other families and other couples because living like this proactively is, I feel a tremendous amount of love and a tremendous amount of support, no matter what kind of day I've had, we are able to communicate about it. And, I feel loved.

Hoyt: 15:58

So Armin, so many members of our audience here are either divorced or they've lost a spouse and, you know, they're in midlife You've actually, walked that path before. what have you learned for yourself in comparing your experiences in marriage through the divorce and then into this new relationship with your wife right now?

Armann: 16:30

Yeah, this is my second time around and, uh, it's been awesome. The, the being able to have a partner that is vulnerable, that is That is proactive, that is able to, not just communicate what's going on, but also be able to problem solve the technique of it. I like this. I like that. What makes you feel better? What makes you feel worse? And we spend enormous amount of time, figuring out the details over how we work as a couple. I remember as a kid, there was a book that said, don't sweat the small stuff. And it was kind of a good book to say, you know, don't sweat the small stuff if somebody cuts you off or something like that. But in a relationship, sweat the small stuff. Because being able to greet each other when you see each other in the morning or afternoon. Being able to know the very details about, you know, like, do you like this or do you like that or don't you like this? And knowing the kind of the boundaries of, you know, Uh, if there's too much teasing and not enough teasing or, uh, how do you feel loved and how can I love you? And how can you love me?

Hoyt: 17:30

let's go back for a second because I'm fascinated with how all of these tools and skills. might be used even before you're in a relationship, which says to me, if you're out there and you're in the online dating pool, there are thousands and thousands of potential matches for you, potential matches for

Armann: 17:52

Yeah

Hoyt: 17:53

And oftentimes it's very easy for people to find themselves in a relationship where they kind of feel like it's good enough, I'm really interested in how people can develop the communication skills and the awareness in themselves early on so that that partner that they're selecting really is a, a good fit for them. So how might they do some of that early on?

Armann: 18:21

Yeah

Hoyt: 18:22

putting you on the spot here,

Armann: 18:23

No, this is great. This is great because first of all like You're worth it as each of us are worth it. And we need, if we're in a relationship, we are, we need to be treated well because to be for a healthy relationship, we need to treat the partner well and they need to treat us well. And we're equals and we're just as important. So if, if for those individuals that had come from a marriage that was not healthy, if at anytime the new partner reminds them of the unhealthy partner, run away, just And, uh, even tell people, like if in the middle of dinner you recognize it, stand up, go to the bathroom. Just leave. Just go. So it is not worth it. Move on because you have a chance now to find somebody that, uh, that, that is willing to be in, in there with you, to be vulnerable with you. and it's the beauty of a, of the relationship is it within the vulnerability and the communication and the connection. And that can be worked on day in and day out. And even as you think the relationship is great now, if you keep getting vulnerable, keep sharing, it gets better and better and better.

Hoyt: 19:28

and so those early signals pay, you're saying pay attention to those early signals, right? If you, if, if you've got triggers

Armann: 19:37

Yes.

Hoyt: 19:38

maybe are associated with a previous relationship and you're starting to see those. just walk away. Walk away. Because

Armann: 19:46

there are, there are.

Hoyt: 19:47

are plenty of options for you, you know. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be next month, right? That you find that person. But that person that will resonate with you is out there.

Armann: 19:59

Yes, and you may not know their face, but be patient and be loving towards yourself enough to To want to keep searching and if that person in front of you isn't that it reminds you of somebody that's very unhealthy or toxic You owe it to yourself to To wait to to keep looking for the other person.

Hoyt: 20:21

But you know, sometimes, isn't it true Armin, that sometimes, particularly I think for women, who more often than men have been trained as people pleasers, right? It's true.

Armann: 20:31

Yeah

Hoyt: 20:32

To not do that thing where they will stand up and say, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna back off of this because it doesn't, doesn't feel right. They'll, they'll say, no, I can maybe fix this, So what are the cautions, Armin, around thinking that you can change this person?

Armann: 20:49

Well, number one, I can fix this is a big one. Don't do that. it's okay to be able to want to please another person, but is the person pleasing you? is the other person, as loving and caring and supportive as they are? who's working harder? It's a big one. If, if you are working harder, then the relationship is not as healthy as as you can be. If it feels like you're working hard and the other person work works working hard, that's great. If you're not working very hard and the other person is, that's not healthy either. So it's the equality comes into how hard are we work and to make this relationship work and thrive and the equality of, of it is really important. Am I putting in as much as you are and it doesn't have to look the same or be the. But it has to be, in equality and effort.

Hoyt: 21:34

So you're saying that it, there has to be a symmetry. There a balance between what each of those people are putting into The relationship

Armann: 21:44

Yes. And it can look different. It doesn't have to be equality of time, equality of money, equality of any specific topic, but does it feel like we're putting the same amount of effort in to be connected and supportive and communicative, then that's, that's very good.

Hoyt: 22:00

what's the phrase equally yoked, right? So

Armann: 22:03

Yeah.

Hoyt: 22:05

You're going to just go in circles if you're not equally yoked All

Armann: 22:11

Absolutely.

Hoyt: 22:12

right. so in the second half of the show I want to talk about specific triggers for conflict and how to get to talking through those. But I'm fascinated with this idea that men are locked into a couple of paradigms that they've been taught ever since they were knee high, right? One is don't show vulnerability, tough it out as you said, right? They're, they're taught that, logic is king, right?

Armann: 22:43

Mm-Hmm,

Hoyt: 22:44

so for men, regardless of the best intentions for a, a woman that they might be with, that might seem impenetrable to them. So what kind of things can a woman do to test to see if in fact, that shell is so hard? You're never gonna break it? Or there is some vulnerability there that, that they can get on the same side with.

Armann: 23:08

absolutely, absolutely. There. I mean, it's there. We, men are, we men have just as many feelings as women. we just need some techniques to get to them. Absolutely.

Hoyt: 23:18

so let's take a quick break In the second half of the show, let's pick some of those specifics and talk about the tools and techniques that people can use in their dating life to make better decisions, essentially. Right? And live a more fulfilled relationship life.

Armann: 23:34

yes, absolutely.

Hoyt: 23:36

Armand, we'll be back in just a minute. If you're enjoying this episode of behind the swipe. Share the love. Forward this episode to your friends and colleagues that you think might enjoy it. If you haven't already done. So be sure to follow us on Instagram at behind the swipe podcast and on Facebook at behind this white. If you already do. You'll probably notice some reels and stories for the next few days With clips from the best moments of this episode. you can help share those more broadly as well by liking and sharing the clips in your feed as well. It helps us get this important topic out more broadly to others, just like you. As always, we appreciate your support and encouragement. Now. Let's get back to our fascinating conversation. So I am back with Armon Finger. Armon is a therapist here in the Atlanta area, primarily working with relationships. And we are talking about how to avoid stepping into the relationship traps that cause you to feel like you got to tough it out rather than talk it out. And before we jump back into the topic here, Armon, tell people how they can find you.

Armann: 24:56

Absolutely. Thank you. Uh, my YouTube channel is Armin LPC. So just check us out. There's our short videos. It's about emotions and motivation, love and how to communicate and connect. And you can also, uh, check me out at the website, armandfanger. com.

Hoyt: 25:14

And that's F E N G E R.

Armann: 25:17

Correct.

Hoyt: 25:18

Awesome. All right, so you and I have both seen this with friends of ours, with patients that, that you've seen, where, oftentimes it will be one particular trigger or one trip wire that causes a relationship, particularly an early stage relationship, to begin to get off track. And if you're not correcting that and facing it early on, it's just going to sit there and fester under the surface. And it's going to come back in ways that could be catastrophic for the relationship. So, so let's, let's talk about some of those tripwires for people that you've seen.

Armann: 25:59

Well, the biggest one is just assuming. And when we, and that happens a lot, when we don't have enough information, when we don't communicate enough, we try to fill in that the gaps with assumptions and, uh, assumptions are the worst because we assume bad things in order to protect ourselves.

Hoyt: 26:16

give me an example of that Armin. And,

Armann: 26:18

so, this guy that I was talking to, he and his wife could track each other on the phone. And, one day he said he was going to leave at a certain time, but he, a call came in. And so he took the call and it took about 45 minutes to an hour longer than he expected. And then suddenly he was, he got off the phone and suddenly his wife called and she was in tears and reminded, she could track him on the phone. And she's like, where are you? He's like, um, at the office. It's like, Oh, I thought you're in a car crash. And that was the assumption, going out of the way out of out of whack because her anxiety was of course she didn't want her husband to get any being harmed but without tracking her him she just went through the assumption and and went really badly um but other ones are like i assume like uh maybe there's a comment that didn't sit well the comment could mean i assume you think i'm dumb i'm ugly you don't like me You're going to dump me. you have, you are, I'm assuming you're dating other guys, other women. Uh, it's very quick. These, can be comments, facial gestures, tones can be easily assumed into something that is not when anxiety and fear is involved. So if we're not careful, if we don't, when we underuse words, assumptions can go in.

Hoyt: 27:37

and so most of us are wired that way just as a self preservation mechanism, right? I remember hearing this story, I think this was in one of the episodes we did last season, where A woman would automatically go into a place where if there was a conflict, she was starting to pack a bag, right? Thinking, this one is it, Because she had some history in that. So she was assuming that this will not end well.

Armann: 28:09

Yeah. So, so in the relationship, they could, if they had talked about it, he, they could come to agreement where the guy who said, I'm not mad at you. I know my tone is changing, but I'm not mad at you. I'm just frustrated that this and this and this happening. Or, uh, there was this one family, they came in, there was a husband and wife and three kids and they're all boys. And she was, um, At several occasions, she had to come home frustrated with whatever's happening during the day. And the latest example was that she had road rage. And she came in the door and all the guys, the husband and the kids, immediately knew, uh oh, my wife or my mom is angry. So they all got anxious. And so I said, All right, why don't you say to the boys, I'm not mad at you. I'm just frustrated. I've been cut off and she's like, why do I need to do that? And the, the older guys were like, yeah, do that, do that, do that. Cause they can relax and say, it's not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong. She's not mad at me. And so being able to, clarify the intent, clarify what, even what's, what's going on in the moment that can help the other person not assume and therefore make things go smoother.

Hoyt: 29:18

So, making an assumption, that's a big one. Making, and we all do, right? Because we're in our own heads most of the time.

Armann: 29:26

Yeah.

Hoyt: 29:27

And we're not really even all that good at really listening.

Armann: 29:33

Yes, yes. Oftentimes we're thinking, what are we gonna say? how does that make you feel? And we don't really hear what the other person really meant.

Hoyt: 29:41

it kind of hijacks your thought process, even when you're clearly not being told that you did something wrong. In your mind, you're saying, well, what if? And going down those rabbit trails, right?

Armann: 29:55

yes. Absolutely. And this is for us men who are overly logical. We can forget about what the emotion is part of the sit of the conversation. so when the conversation doesn't go well, we're like, wait, what's happened? I just said this, that, and the other, and then the tone may have been way off or the intent of this, the timing of this comment was way off. Or you said it in a situation which was embarrassing or caused another emotion. So it's, it's important to be able to use way too many words to be able to talk it out a lot more than we think. So,

Hoyt: 30:31

do you see after making assumptions?

Armann: 30:33

so if, somebody makes an assumption that, uh, this may seem kind of, uh, weird in a, in a, in a day to day life, more like in a, in a therapy exercise, but, but able to say, I'm assuming you mean this. And, uh, this is an example from, uh, a parent child situation where the teenage boy was. And, you know, just hi, and didn't hide, hid in his bedroom. And, and the dad finally said in the therapy session, based on what I know of you, I think you're a drug addict and alcoholic. And the kid looked at his dad's like, what are you talking about? I went to a few parties and that's it. And the dad said, I don't know you anymore. You'd never communicate with me. And that's the truth. Same as for husband and wife, or people who are dating. Is that sometimes we don't share enough information. Then the assumptions creep in and then it goes all over the place.

Hoyt: 31:26

and so the path to avoiding that is just hitting it head on. Which, for a man that's logic driven, and is used to, putting emotions in the attic, right?

Armann: 31:37

Yeah.

Hoyt: 31:38

that's not the first place they go to. it almost seems like, you need to have a rubber band around your wrist or something so you can snap it just to say, Oh yeah, I'm supposed to think of this, right? But there must be ways for guys to train themselves without having to, overnight become enlightened as a great communicator.

Armann: 31:57

So the best way is storytelling. Storytelling allows another person to come in and be a part of their day. And, and many times guys tell me, like, I don't want to tell them about my, my work that I don't want to burden them with that, that problem or this problem. Well, it's quite the opposite. The partner will find very, feel much more loved and cared for if you open up about your work day, because then they feel more connection. So if there's a, confrontational work, or even if it's not about you, let's say Bob was angry with Bill and one guy threw a coffee at another guy and there was a big deal. And then, they took half hour to calm down. That's a story that you can allow the person to be a part of by sharing it. So storytelling is one of the best ways to be connected, to reduce assumptions and, improve communication. you don't have to report your whole day. Stories are allow, are specific periods of your, of your day or specific incidents. If you include emotions, that'd be even better.

Hoyt: 32:56

And so women are better at that, but they've got other challenges, I mean, clearly you talked about the assumptions and women will go to that place, you know, pretty quickly, but they're not generally speaking ones to button up emotions, right? Which can be scary for a guy in their lives, right? So, what can a woman do to become sensitive to, let's find a collaborative path going forward

Armann: 33:28

So for the, A lot of this is, uh, this is not every time, but for, for your women listening right now, if you're able to answer this question for your man, what am I supposed to do with this? That happens so many times. What am I supposed to do with this information, this conversation, and sometimes the intent could be, Hey, I just want you to listen to me and then tell the story. I just, I need your help to figure this out. And then he gives it to the man, the understanding of. What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to listen? Am I supposed to fix this? Am I supposed to chime in? Am I supposed to nod? What am I doing here? And, and it helped the man by, uh, clarifying what am I supposed to do within the situation and things will go smoother.

Hoyt: 34:11

So for a man, typically, if you're in this relationship, You want to be there, and you want to be supportive,

Armann: 34:20

Yes.

Hoyt: 34:20

unless you're given that, and you used the term roadmap before, which I love, right? But unless you have that roadmap,

Armann: 34:29

Yes.

Hoyt: 34:29

unless it's given to you, right, then you're not going to have an opportunity to really succeed in that communication, are you?

Armann: 34:37

No. And we, most of us, all we want to do is love our women. And it starts from very young. We want to love and be loved by our moms. And as adults, we want to love and be loved by our partners. And we want to do, we work so hard to try to do that. We do it with the skills that we have, but we need more skills. We need the roadmaps so that we can have a better six time, better abilities to succeed.

Hoyt: 35:03

So part of the storytelling that you had mentioned is really about presenting that roadmap, isn't it? And, and, and that it sounds like in your advice and counseling that that is one of the top skills that you feel like people can acquire is sharing that roadmap for the other person.

Armann: 35:27

yeah. and a great example of that is, I was really late to life in, in chivalry and I was under the impression that, chivalry is about, men having more power than women and, oppressing or something like that. And my wife's like, no, no, no, it's an act of love. I was like, okay, I'll give it a try. So I opened the door up for her and. She, she, she was happy and thankful. She looked at me and said, thank you in this very kind, loving way. And I was like, Whoa, that was awesome. So I opened another door and she did it again. And then I held the seat and she did it again. And then I did the door for the car and she did it again. And the chivalry only works if, if the man doesn't act and the woman doesn't act back. It's an, it's a duplicate act. It's a reciprocal act of love. Because women can do any of these behaviors. They can hold open their own doors. That's not a problem. But it's an act of love. It's not an act of behavior.

Hoyt: 36:27

All right. So walking through these other, tripwires. we talked about assumptions. We talked about the roadmap. We talked about storytelling. what other kinds of things tend to trip people up, whether they're men or women?

Armann: 36:39

so there's a difference when starting a relationship when in your 20s compared to in your 40s and 50s, You have established a certain routine, you've established expectations, so being able to communicate more about, everyday life stuff is important. and the history of relationships is also important. There's one guy that I talked to, his wife passed away, and she was the assertive one in the relationship. And he just was along for the ride. He loved it, he said. He's like, this is great. I came home from work and she told me, get dressed, we're doing this. I was like, great, we're doing that. But he didn't have to put much effort into the activities or she just took care of everything. But when she passed away, he found himself in a new relationship. In this case, the woman was more passive and he was more assertive. He was really thrown off by that because, wait, does she like it what I chose? Is she, is she pleased? Am I disappointing her? she didn't give enough feedback like his previous wife did. And it comes back to what we men want. We want to make women happy and we try our best. mess up, but we try our best. But this new girlfriend didn't give him the feedback and he was really thrown off by that. So we had to work through that.

Hoyt: 37:55

and did that couple find a path forward with that? I mean, were they able to say, okay, I, I know what you need.

Armann: 38:02

Yes, they were able to understand each other's coping styles. They were able to understand each other's communication. They're able to put into place habits and roles. And they were able to do the little things that made the other person feel more secure. for example, they took a trip not too long ago and he planned it and took care of all the logistics. And she did the little things like smile and says, this is great. This is wonderful. I'm having such a great time. And didn't have to be this gigantic big gestures, but these little things made him feel. Enormously, happy. And he, I think he's, he might want to do it again and again and again.

Hoyt: 38:37

So that actually gets back into understanding what somebody's love language is, right? Like what is it that really conveys that they're seen and appreciated?

Armann: 38:47

Absolutely. This is really important. Although, uh, I'm a big fan of the hugging. So if you have no idea what to do, go for the hug.

Hoyt: 38:54

Yeah.

Armann: 38:56

it's wonderful.

Hoyt: 38:57

That's like right down there low on Maslow's hierarchy, right? It's like everybody loves a hug, right?

Armann: 39:02

Yes. I read a book in college that said love. And he said, I don't remember much about the book, but it said, to live a happy life, you need to have seven hugs a day. So I went around and hugged people. And after a little while, when people saw me coming, they put their arms out ready for a hug. And it was great. I went around hugging people for a little while.

Hoyt: 39:23

And you didn't end up getting thrown in jail for that or anything like that. Sorry,

Armann: 39:27

no, it was good. Everybody's happy with it.

Hoyt: 39:30

Armin. I want to talk about one of the other topic here, but, but I want to make sure we exhaust some of these tripwires that people tend to come across. And I do want to connect it back to, you know, well, how do you, how do you do this? Like really early in a relationship to find out whether this person is connectable in the ways that are important to you.

Armann: 39:50

Yeah. So in the first few dates, it's not just go dive in the deep end. it takes practice and it takes, several dates. but each time try to make it a little more, personable, a little more vulnerable and see how the partner reacts. it's going to take some time and take some effort, but keep pushing the envelope to see, is this person, reacting, responding, or is this person resisting? and when you push it you'll learn a lot more about the partner and be able to make better decisions. And, um, and if you have no idea, if you're confused, you have no idea what's going on, it's okay to bring it up and talk about it. Yeah,

Hoyt: 40:28

so many people are, men and women really feel like, vulnerability is a scary place to go to. and a lot of that comes from history, I made myself vulnerable and I got burned. And so retraining yourself to test those waters. Because all the best stuff's on the other side of that in a relationship. Is it not?

Armann: 40:50

absolutely. Absolutely. Because Being burnt is not, not fun. And it really hurts. And it takes a long time sometimes to get over. And it may have a lifetime worth of memories that are really, really difficult. But just because you got burnt, don't have to rob yourself of future joy and future love. Because there are people out there. That are ready and willing to be there and support you and be kind to me, loving and be in a relationship with you. And you don't have to hit a home run on the first trial, the second trial, the third try, but it's okay. You keep working. You're worth it. You're worth loving and being cared for and being supported. And if you have unique ways of doing that, that's great. No problem. I just talk a lot about emotion and I need a partner that is willing to go there a lot. And a partner that's not willing would not be a good fit for me.

Hoyt: 41:41

at the end of the day, I mean, what's the worst that could happen, The worst that could happen is that you get rejected,

Armann: 41:47

if there's a breakup or rejection, it's actually good. It wasn't the right fit. And that means you can move on. you're on your journey to find the right person. And it doesn't have to be a rejection of me, you as like a person, or it just didn't fit. And that's okay.

Hoyt: 42:01

it's like the mantra in my world, which is the tech startup world, is, is, Fail fast. You know,

Armann: 42:08

Yes.

Hoyt: 42:09

find out what doesn't work fast so you can get onto the stuff that does. And the same thing is true in relationships, is it not?

Armann: 42:16

Absolutely. That is a great way of saying that.

Hoyt: 42:19

So Armin, I want to go back to a topic that you and I had begun to discuss before we started this interview. I've heard so many people both on this show and friends of mine talking about their narcissistic X and Y, that blew up their relationship. And it seems to me that that's a handy label that people pick up and use maybe more freely than they should. But I want to understand from your perspective as a therapist, what is narcissism and how does it play in relationships?

Armann: 42:56

narcissism actually is pretty simple. It's about power. Power and control. And not about trying to have the best relationship. It's not about communication. It's not about a win win. It's a win lose. I need to win. As a narcissist, they need to win all the time. And sometimes the situation is like, why did they do that? It's not there in their best interest. Well, they did it for the power and the control. but sometimes it gets confused with, not very emotional or he's very demanding, or, not very empathetic. and for some men, they are mislabeled narcissists because they're not good at emotions. So narcissism is definitely a thing and it's very harmful and destructive because the power control can really be, so destructive, not just in the relationship, but if you get out, it can be destructive after and for a long time. But there is a difference between the person who wants power control versus the power of just, I don't know what to do, so I'll just do something.

Hoyt: 43:55

does narcissism align with a lack of inherent empathy? Are those two things associated?

Armann: 44:01

So narcissism usually starts, early on. There's been some sort of trauma. It's a coping skill to be able to navigate life. So they're not inherently evil people. It's just, their behavior in a relationship is terrible they're not happy, nor is the partner happy. It's just a way to deal with life and deal with relationships. And they need to be able to control. And have power in any relationship in order to navigate life. But if you are somebody that doesn't understand emotions and you're overwhelmed and you just are assertive or aggressive, that's different because, uh, yes, you can hurt somebody's feelings and you can be not really understanding, but that's more about not understanding emotions and not understand how to communicate, not understand how to be relatable or be empathetic, and that is something that can be learned. And I've seen a ton of guys become much more empathetic and kind and supportive and understand about emotions. one of my favorite example is, there was one guy, he came in and he, his wife wasn't very nice to him and he was, and he got his feelings hurt and he didn't know what to do with it. I was like, have you ever told her that she hurts your feelings? And he looked at me in astonishment. It's like, you can do that? I was like, yes, you can, you can say that. And he's like, uh, do you ever told you that you're hurt or you're frustrated, you can do that. And I was like, yes, you can do that. So he didn't understand that he didn't know that that was the thing where you can tell people how you feel. You can tell people how this is not working and in this particular situation, the core issue wasn't the couple that was the in laws and when they started communicating better, it became much more about in laws and they. End up being much more of a connected couple and they've communicated not in a hurt way, but more supportive way.

Hoyt: 45:55

so finding a way to make sure that they both understood that they were on the same side of the table.

Armann: 46:01

Yeah. Yeah. I call it advocates, not adversaries. and it doesn't mean that one person, you both have to get your way. or one is better than the other, but it's about working together to come up with a decision. And so let's say my idea is better than yours. So it's not like you're dumb and I'm smart. It becomes, let's just choose my way. And we do it in a compassionate, supportive way. And we're advocates.

Hoyt: 46:25

so become advocates for each other rather than that's kind of on a knife edge sometimes that advocate Adversary, right?

Armann: 46:33

Oh my gosh. Yes. When fear, anxiety, frustration is involved, it's really hard to detect. And, but I've seen Countless couples, take the idea of just the mantra of, I'm going to be advocate and just, I have no idea what I'm doing right now, but I'll try to be advocate for you. And, and they just keep talking and keep working at it. And one way or another, they, get to a point where they feel supported and feel understood.

Hoyt: 46:56

that's a hopeful way to frame that isn't it?

Armann: 46:59

Yes, absolutely.

Hoyt: 47:01

All right Let me make sure I understand something here because you we were talking about narcissism and acknowledging that yes, there are narcissists out there and this is as you were saying Uh really about power and control on their part, but it sounds like your contention, Armin, is that that's a far smaller percentage of the population than gets often labeled as narcissistic,

Armann: 47:27

Yeah. there's a lot of mislabeling narcissism. Because the behavior of. I don't know what to do. I don't understand this. I don't understand emotions or I don't understand how to communicate with you. can look like power control, but If you dig a little deeper and see the intent, you see the difference. And, that's really important to know because behavior is not as important as the intent and emotion behind it. In many relationships I've seen, being able to dig a little deeper, if you see there was a really great intent, poor execution, terrible language, but the intent was loving and caring, supportive, and you just need new skills to learn how to do it. And number one, don't use logic as much as you use emotion. And that's sometimes very hard. And in fact, there's been several times I've told. Especially men, after talking about emotions and talking it out and all that stuff. And I was like, look at him. And like, so basically do the opposite of what you've been doing all along. And they were like, Oh no. So like learning a new language.

Hoyt: 48:32

So before we wrap up here, Armin, I want to go back to a central theme for you, and that is talk it out, don't tough it out, when I hear that, it lands with me as, you know, toughen it out. is the known path for people, and it's really is part of what you were just talking about here, right? If I'm not telling you that this is making me uncomfortable or confused or bringing stress on me, then that's on me because I'm not communicating it to you. But really that becomes a, well, I can frame it for myself as I'm going to tough it out.

Armann: 49:14

Yeah.

Hoyt: 49:14

how do you get people to recognize how destructive that tendency to Understand that toughing it out is the way that strength is shown, and get to that place where you're talking out instead.

Armann: 49:31

I tried to show and communicate the awesomeness that talking it out is, because what it leads to The best part is love and the amazing, not only the feeling day to day, but the ability to grow as a human grows a couple. It's, it's fantastic. And so I communicated not as much about, Hey, don't tough, not about don't do this, don't do that, but do the talking it out. And this leads to this and leads to that. And try this out, try that out. So, you know, talk about your intent. share that you're frustrated and see how it goes. And step by step, people are like, Hey, yeah, this kind of feels better. Oh, yeah, it kind of worked. Or, Hey, there's one strategy. I've never done that before. Yeah. Uh, and in the, even in, in our session, I ask people to tell story after story after story. And I asked him, how do you feel now? And there they lean back and They recollect and like, you know, I do feel better. I feel a little lighter. And then there's a buy in, there's an emotional connection with that. There's an emotional change to the situation. And so I try to keep my advice kind of simple because doing it is so hard. So talking it out, don't tough it out. Talk it out, don't tough it out. It's a simple idea. Doing it in the heat of the moment in real life is hard. So having that simple message in your head. Gives you a better chance to do it and gives a better chance for success and better chance to have that relationship grow and develop in this, in the fight, in the, in the face of fear and anxiety, history. and, sometimes in the fear of what other people may say or think.

Hoyt: 51:12

And even with the best of intentions, you're gonna fail at it sometimes.

Armann: 51:16

Oh yes. Lots of crashing and burning and that's okay. Lots of crashing and burning.

Hoyt: 51:22

get up, dust off, and go right back in, huh?

Armann: 51:26

Yeah, so one detail, one exercise my wife and I have agreed on, thankfully, is that a do over. sometimes I walk in, we're in this situation, it doesn't go well, I'm crashing and burning like crazy. I'm like, I need a do over. And she's like, okay. And sometimes I leave the room, come back, and we restart the conversation. And it goes much better. and that's what works for us, which is great. she gives me enough grace and love to be able to get that do over because she knows the intent is there. And, um,

Hoyt: 51:56

So it's like a director saying, cut, we're gonna take that scene over again, huh?

Armann: 52:00

Absolutely. I need it. And she needs it too. And so there's many times where she is not at her emotional best and her comments may come across and do come across not the nicest. And we have enough built up grace and an understanding, and we've built up enough techniques that we allow for that kind of do over and love.

Hoyt: 52:21

Well, it sounds like she was pretty evolved. before you guys actually got married. So that's been, that was beneficial for you, right?

Armann: 52:29

Huge, big.

Hoyt: 52:33

Armin, any thoughts you want to leave our audience with before we leave this subject today?

Armann: 52:38

I think that one of the important parts is, no matter what situation you're in and what age you're in, it's never too late to be in a relationship or find a relationship that is full of love and you're worth it. You're worth the adventure, you're worth the effort, and you're worth the attention and being able to share a life with somebody is fantastic. if anybody has a thoughts of, about anything different, I encourage them to spend the time and the effort, get the support, because, life with love, life with caring, life with people who are supportive, it's pretty fantastic.

Hoyt: 53:13

So other than seeking preemptive therapy on this, what are some of your favorite resources that you point people to in learning how to communicate better with somebody that they really care about.

Armann: 53:28

Yeah. So. Talk it out. It doesn't mean you share everything with anybody. It's, uh, a friend of mine uses the green, yellow, and red zone. And no matter what role there are in your life, you don't automatically get into the green zone, the vulnerability zone, the safe zone. You really have to earn it. And having those people in your life, Practicing sharing and communicating is fantastic and practicing sharing stories and, listening to the stories and being empathetic back is wonderful. So, uh, it doesn't have to be just with a partner. It could be the friends. It could be with, parents. It could be with siblings. It could be, with kids, whoever the situation is. there are people there if they're fit into your green zone, the safe zone. the people that are trustworthy enough to hear your vulnerable conversations. I encourage you to talk to them, whether they're in person or over the phone or video chats. it all counts.

Hoyt: 54:23

Well, Armin, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate your being here today before we let everybody go, remind them again, where to find you online with your YouTube channel and your website.

Armann: 54:34

Thank you so much. the YouTube channel is, Armin LPC and, on the website is arminfenger. com.

Hoyt: 54:42

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom here today. I appreciate it.

Armann: 54:47

It's been an honor. I really appreciate the invitation.

Hoyt: 54:52

As we wrap up today's episode A big, thanks to Armann Fenger for joining us and sharing his insights on communication and early relationship challenges. It's always enlightening to explore different perspectives. And Armand provided us with plenty to think about. Especially regarding how we navigate those inevitable glitches in our relationships. Reflecting on our conversation. It's clear. There's always something new to learn about how we connect and communicate with our partners. Whether it's understanding the fear behind our actions or finding the right words to bridge a gap. These discussions can open up new pathways for growth and understanding. If you found value in today's episode. And think it might resonate with someone, you know, I encourage you to pass it along. Sometimes a fresh perspective is just what we need to see our way through a complex situation. I'm Hoyt Prisock, and it's been a pleasure to share this time with you on Behind the Swipe. We'll be back next week with more insights and conversations until then. Swipe fearlessly.