Hoyt: 0:39

Have you ever considered that those mysterious forces of love and attraction? You know, the moments that make your heart race and your palms, sweat. Might be less about cosmic fate. And more about the precisely orchestrated dance of nature's neurochemicals flooding our brains. What if our collective Western embrace of fairytale, love stories, and heart tugging, Hollywood meet cutes. Or simply our way of making sense of what seems too magical to be true. It turns out that while Cupid's arrow is in a sense, real. Mother nature has spiked the tip with the precise chemical cocktail. Designed to assure the very survival of our species. Today we explore the fascinating intersection of love. And biology. With author and biologist, Dawn Mosler biggie. Don is the author of men. Chase women. Choose. And together we'll explore how our body's natural chemicals. Like the well-known dopamine and the less familiar Bassett pressing. Play critical roles in the early stages of attraction. The deepening of connections and the decision-making processes that lead us to choose one partner over another. So if you found yourself puzzled by the complexities of love and attraction, Or simply curious about why we feel the way we do. You won't want to miss what promises to be a revealing journey into the heart. Of our neurochemical romance. I am here with Dawn Masler Biggie. Dawnis the love biologist, and I couldn't be more excited about digging into this topic today, because I've got a fascination in general with psychology and neuroscience, and this is really the intersection of love and biology. And I don't think anything could be more fascinating. Dawn, welcome to Behind the Swipe.

Dawn: 2:45

You know, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Hoyt: 2:47

in this topic, I had mentioned in the opening that You had written a book called Men Chase, Women Choose.

Dawn: 2:55

Correct.

Hoyt: 2:55

me why that title for the book.

Dawn: 2:57

Well, it's based on biology. So, we see in all creatures, pretty much across the board that the gender that has the most risk, in our case for females, for women, it's pregnancy, that they will be pursued by the sex that has the least amount of risk. In our case is the male. Some cases, like seahorses, the male carries the babies so that the risk is different. The females actually pursue.

Hoyt: 3:27

So today we're going to talk about hormones and the impact that it has, on your biology and actually your behavior and maybe ways that you don't even recognize yourself. And we're going to talk about things that everybody knows. So everybody knows about testosterone, everybody knows about estrogen, but we're also going to talk about hormones. We're going to talk about dopamine, we're going to talk about oxytocin, and we're going to introduce a new little chemical here called vasopressin. So before we get started, can you give us

Dawn: 4:00

don't forget, norepinephrine.

Hoyt: 4:02

Norepinephrine, that's right, yes. So now we've got six. So let's, let's go with those. Let's do a basic introduction to what those are and why they're important to us as human beings.

Dawn: 4:15

Okay, so estrogen, we know females, estrogen is what makes a female a female. and testosterone is the male hormone that makes the male bigger, you know, bustles. but those two do come into a play of like how our behavior changes. Or not only is it physically responsive, it does have a behavioral response to it, which we can delve into a little bit more. Dopamine is one of my favorites because that's the, the hormone of happiness, of excitement. You know, when you, when you play a, a game and you get, you get excited about playing the game, that's dopamine. When you start dating somebody and You see their name pops up on your phone, that little spark, that's dopamine. Norepinephrine, that is actually a fight or flight hormone, but when it comes to attraction, we feel it as butterflies.

Hoyt: 5:13

Oh, interesting.

Dawn: 5:16

So I explain more about that, how that happens. And then vasopressin is the one where men will have an effect of, if it builds up, then they may fall in love.

Hoyt: 5:30

And then the last one is oxytocin, right?

Dawn: 5:33

Yeah, oh, and oxytocin, and that is the one that builds up for women, and women will fall in love.

Hoyt: 5:38

So that is the, that's the love drug really, huh? Oxytocin. Oh,

Dawn: 5:43

a lot of people say oxytocin is the bonding hormone, in some ways it really is. It, it does help you bond to your, mate, but it also, it doesn't just automatically happen. There's a buildup, and then your body's always, we are not at, Our brain kicks in too. So our brain's going, Hey, our oxytocin is building up. We should examine this a little bit more. So there's like, governors to your oxytocin buildup.

Hoyt: 6:11

all of this is fascinating. before we leave the biology lesson tell me where these hormones come from in What, what's putting the testosterone or the estrogen or The norepinephrine in our bodies.

Dawn: 6:27

Okay. So we have things called endocrine glands and our endocrine glands will secrete hormones, which are chemical messengers that have an effect, by definition, have an effect on other an other part of the body or another organ. the testes does testosterone, the ovaries does estrogen, and so on and so forth. So it depends on what gland we're looking at and what, hormone we're looking at. And then of course, the brain also produces the other ones. So we're looking at the, hypothalamus.

Hoyt: 6:57

testosterone and estrogen are present in men and women. It's just that there's a predominance of testosterone in men.

Dawn: 7:06

so men testosterone fluctuate. So on an average, we're looking at about a 10 percent testosterone level in a female.

Hoyt: 7:14

before we leave that topic, you mentioned the fight or flight component, which is. innate in all of us. And it's an important survival mechanism,

Dawn: 7:26

mm hmm.

Hoyt: 7:27

Evolutionarily, it's an important survival mechanism. what roles besides attraction and love are these hormones generally contributing to our survival and well being?

Dawn: 7:41

So norepinephrine is like we said the fight or flight response. So if a masked gunman walks through the door, your body's producing norepinephrine. What it does, it shuts down the Blood supplies to your internal organs. It gives it to your muscles. It dilates your pupils. It kind of gives you tunnel vision. It gives you the ability to fight or flee. So you're going to start running. You're gonna start fighting. And it, it, it actually changes your, if you've ever been in a car accident or something, and you said it, people will say, The time seemed to slow. It gives you, that gives you that kind of, delayed time effect where you have the ability to make decisions that seem like it's taking a lot longer, like time is slowing down. So you have the ability to get out of that. surmise your condition and make a proper decision. Am I gonna fight? Am I gonna flee? I say it's the, three Fs. Fight,

Hoyt: 8:44

the three F's.

Dawn: 8:46

yeah, or have sex.

Hoyt: 8:50

Well, I know we'll get into how that plays into love, attraction, and sex as a part of this conversation. let's go ahead and transition over to talking about the effect of these hormones on in early relationships. So let's say you're dating online and you talk in your book about all five senses being connected. engaged as a part of this. So, I'm on an app and I'm, I see somebody that like sparks me for some reason, right? For, and it's different for a man and for a woman. So, so give me the perspectives on that initial sense of attraction and what's at play

Dawn: 9:34

okay. Women hate to hear this, but men have 25 percent more neurotransmitters in the visual cortex, meaning they place a higher percentage on Visual stimulation in how a woman looks. So if you're on a nap and you're looking at a woman, chances are you're looking at, you're looking at her, you're probably not reading your profile. You're just looking at her and you're looking at, uh, characteristics of fertility and it's innate into your, it's built into the, You're looking for what are these signs? Does she have long, silky hair? Because that's a sign of good health. Does she have an ample bosom? Because that's a sign of fertility. A thin waist is also a sign of fertility. Clear skin, um, looks of youth. All of those are attractive to a male. Because even though you can be 70 years old, there's still a little part of your brain that's thinking, family fertility. And it, it, not even if you don't even want it, it doesn't matter. That's what your brain says is attractive.

Hoyt: 10:51

So it's kind of evolutionary autopilot, huh? Yeah.

Dawn: 10:55

exactly. oh, and by the way, you're also looking for, there's, there's a little bit of juxtaposing to this thing too, because you're looking for, a wholesome female, but then you're also, there's a part of you that is looking more sexually. So, if she looks too wholesome, you're flipping through. You're swiping the other way. But, one of the things I tell people, particularly females, if you're putting your first picture on. Either you want to wear red or have red in the background. Red isn't very attractive to a male. If you do white, it's too pure. They're not that attractive. They're going to go, they're going to go on to the next one.

Hoyt: 11:35

Well, you mentioned some actual studies on that that actually verified that as a, as a fact, right?

Dawn: 11:42

yes, absolutely. Yep. Everything I wrote in my book and everything I did is based on, I spent five years researching this book. So it's, it's based on study after study after study. I mean, I'm, I'm a professor, so I have the access to not, not just the knowledge base of interpreting the studies, but I also have the studies at the university stacks where I can get to. A lot of people can't. get to these studies to be able to, read them and interpret them. I think

Hoyt: 12:11

So you can totally get down in the weeds with those, huh?

Dawn: 12:14

Exactly. Exactly. So that was the male perspective. The female perspective is a little bit different. When we first open up an app, we're going to like, look at the guy, yes, and then we go read. We're going to read about him. One of the things women like to have is little bit of humor or they also like to have, one of the things you can do is, uh, put a puppy on there, put something like that because they want to have safety. So that feeling of safety and security, it's like, Oh, he's safe. He's got a puppy. He's got, you know, why we like men in uniform, those types of things. You don't want to be too scared, at the beginning. so she's going to read, she's going to see if he, if he seems safe. And then, usually at that point, a man can actually fall in love with a picture. Women tend not to. Because then we have to meet them. We have to talk to them. We have to hear the voice. The voice has a resonance with our ears. Our ears make a decision. I say the, the, we have the five senses, and for a female, each of the five senses gets a vote. The ears, the nose, not necessarily the smell, but there is a pheromone that we're sensing, the major histocompatibility complex. the mouth As a vote, especially when that first kiss, you know, sometimes you have that first kiss and you're like, yep, it's over. Um, and, and. The environment. If you go into, don't, whatever you do, don't go on a first date someplace cold. You want to be, you don't want to go for ice cream in a cold place. You want to have like warm coffee or something like that. Because

Hoyt: 13:47

Oh, tell me more about that. That's interesting.

Dawn: 13:51

so there's a, it's a displacement. So the feeling of warmth, In the environment, when you're sitting with somebody, gives you the impression that they're a warmer person. So you, also what you're sitting on, if you're sitting on a softer, comfier couch or something like that, you're going to feel that they're a softer person. kinder person. If you're sitting on a hard, cold chair, they're going to be hard, cold person, you know. It's like, um, I, I kind of joke, I don't know if you can say it, but I usually say hard, cold chair is a hard ass. You know, that's what you're going to think of the person.

Hoyt: 14:30

So all of this generally speaking, Dawn, is going on inside of the woman looking at the guy and the guy looking at the woman on these apps, and they're really not even aware of what's driving that attraction for them, right?

Dawn: 14:46

Right. So this is all happening in the primitive part of the brain. So we have the The, the cortex, which is the major functioning part of the brain, and that's who we usually think we are, is this big part of the brain. But there's a smaller part of the brain that's right in the middle, and it has, it, it, it has, um, our daily functions. You know, we don't, we don't have to think about most of the stuff that's going on that, that is occurring. You know, we're digesting our food, we're breathing, we're doing all these things, we're moving about The earth. We are sensing things. Oh, I don't wanna go that way. Oh, dark alley not go that way. You know, we don't have to really sit there and think about it. Our body already does it. Sometimes we have responses that don't even actually get all the way to the brain, so we can have certain responses. It just go to the spinal cord. So we, if you step on a piece of glass and you pull your full foot back up, you didn't have to think about, ooh. I shouldn't continue to step on this piece of glass. Your body automatically senses it and makes the correction.

Hoyt: 15:47

And that's the oldest part of the brain, right? So that's what people might refer to as the, Lizard brain or reptile brain, right?

Dawn: 15:56

Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. I call it the primitive part of the brain.

Hoyt: 16:00

and those, impulses that come from those parts of your brain are actually participating in what you think is a rational action as you're swiping and making initial decisions about who you might be interested in meeting.

Dawn: 16:17

You're right. We've all had this. We've all met someone and said, there's just something about that person I don't like.

Hoyt: 16:24

Yeah, people will call it their radar or something, right?

Dawn: 16:27

Exactly. You can't explain it. If you had to sit down and explain it, I mean, eventually you'd probably come up with something, but to be able to really explain it is difficult to do. So we make these snap decisions all the time based on our environment and our primitive brain.

Hoyt: 16:44

should people trust those gut feelings?

Dawn: 16:47

in some cases, yes, in some cases, no. And that's why I wrote the book. So this is a great way to segue into one of the primitive responses is norepinephrine, which is, we said the fight or flight response, right? That also gives you. Those butterflies, those sweaty palms, and that palpitation of the heart, and we interpret that as attraction. But really what it is, is fear.

Hoyt: 17:19

Wow, that sounds counterintuitive.

Dawn: 17:22

Exactly. So getting into a relationship with this person may not be your best interest. The one that doesn't give you that response that seems really boring, that's probably the right one. That other one that's causing you trouble is the one you're going to end up in a divorce with two years down the road. because We were misinterpreting that trigger. it's called misattribution of attraction. It was a bridge study that was done and that the higher, the scarier the bridge somebody's on, the more attracted they are to the person that meets them on the bridge. So it has nothing really to do with the person. It's the fear. So that also explains the bad boy, the motorcycles, All that kind of tall, dark, and handsome, the mysterious stranger, all those things, those are all, norepinephrine.

Hoyt: 18:12

and so you're suggesting, did I hear you right? You're suggesting that it's the people that don't give you butterflies that you might be a better match with?

Dawn: 18:22

Exactly. So what happens with norepinephrine, oftentimes, is that people, think that it's love. But it's not, right? So then they get into a relationship and all of a sudden, they lost that loving feeling, right? the butterflies have gone. So how do you get the butterflies back? It's called drama. So you get into these like breaking up relationships, these on and off again, these fighting relationships. You get that feeling back of like the fear because you're breaking up, you're having the, the adrenaline. But It has nothing to do with love.

Hoyt: 18:55

Wow. And, and so you're saying whatever that is that's operating is more than just lust or a pure sexual desire. it's actually deeper than that, but it's a destructive relationship.

Dawn: 19:07

saying, I'm just saying it has, norepinephrine is attraction. It has nothing to do with love. Nothing. it's a trigger from your body that all it's saying is pay attention. It's not saying good or bad, it's just saying pay attention. Like, look, a black bear just walked through the door, through the window, pay attention. You know, a handsome biker just walked through the door, pay attention. Don't marry him, just pay attention.

Hoyt: 19:38

you might get to have a little fun, but Hey, you know, keep your, keep your wits about you.

Dawn: 19:43

But there's a

Hoyt: 19:48

here's what, I'm a little confused about, and that is that in those early stages, do both men and women experience that norepinephrine in the same way?

Dawn: 20:01

We both experienced norepinephrine. We both get that initial, response. a lot of times after a little bit of norepinephrine for a man, he's going to start getting that dopamine. So the, the dopamine is the excitement. Dopamine and vasopressin start increasing, especially when he's thinking it's going to be a sexual relationship.

Hoyt: 20:24

in the second half of the show, I want to get into that because you've made some fascinating observations from the research. about the effects of sexual intimacy early in a relationship, and I want to absolutely dig into that. But let's go back to our, all right, so you've, you've matched with somebody online. You're interested in them, and then you begin this conversation, and it sounds like your advice is, because all of the senses are involved, it's really important that you experience this person in real life in some way, right?

Dawn: 20:58

Yes, and I just wonder, I just want to go back one more second. So norepinephrine is one of those tricky little hormones that is based on like pre reptilian brain, I mean way back in there, and it's part of the fight or flight response, but when your species is at risk. So it's war time. It's, you know, a natural disaster. A lot of fear is going on. The last thing you want to do is really have sex, right? You're not thinking about that. But with norepinephrine, you are. So when you feel that, when you feel that response, you are going, Hey, um, This guy is like, Oh, I feel butterflies. I feel attractive. Let's go have sex. You don't know why, but you're, you're going. And it's the whole war bride thing, all that kind of, you know,

Hoyt: 21:50

Uh huh.

Dawn: 21:51

that occurs. And all that is doing is ensuring the survival of the species. that's so primitive. That's all it's doing. It's tricking your brain into ensuring the survival of the species.

Hoyt: 22:04

That is fascinating. So in this situation now, you've got men and women both being impacted by the by norepinephrine. Does that, is that a long lasting, like when you get a surge, is it

Dawn: 22:18

it's temporary.

Hoyt: 22:19

temporary as in 20 minutes, 30 minutes, five minutes?

Dawn: 22:22

Yeah, it's just, it's, I mean, it's different for everybody because you can keep triggering it, but it's, you know, you're talking only minutes.

Hoyt: 22:32

and is this something that like in a, in a crowded room and you see somebody across and you might start to feel that, that is a surge of norepinephrine?

Dawn: 22:41

yep, that's the one.

Hoyt: 22:43

All right. So that is one of the initial catalysts that, that tells you that something's, something's going on. Going on. So in your, reptilian brain or whatever, something's telling you, hey, something moved. Something's different. Something's maybe a threat.

Dawn: 22:59

Yes. It could be a threat, but it also could be a familiarity. So it could be different. It could be the same. So you could be gazing across the room at this brand new person who is just like your ex husband. Exactly.

Hoyt: 23:17

often bad than good, but. All right, so now we've got this first meeting what else starts to happen as you are sitting down for this cup of coffee for the first time that you're meeting? What's happening for men and for women?

Dawn: 23:34

So, we are now judging. for women, we're judging, with the five senses we talked about. Men are judging with the five senses, but not as much. So, he's still gazing for those qualities of fertility, but then also for accessibility. So, he would like a long term partner, but if he could get it quickie, he'll take that too.

Hoyt: 23:59

Uh huh.

Dawn: 24:00

that's what his brain's thinking because ideally for a male to spread his seed is his life goal. On a biological, on, you know, we're, we're talking strictly, you know, gut level or basic biology here. So to continue on your gene pool is your ultimate goal as a species, as a individual in a species.

Hoyt: 24:22

And so for a man, you're, you're less at risk as a man, right? So you don't, you don't factor those things in that a woman might factor in about safety, security, because not that much is on the line for you, right? Right.

Dawn: 24:37

Right. Right. So you're looking more accessible. Is she willing? You're basically sitting there going, is she willing or not? I don't know. I don't care.

Hoyt: 24:48

so that's why it makes sense that, I've heard the saying that men will sleep with whoever will sleep with them and women will sleep with who they choose.

Dawn: 24:55

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Hoyt: 24:58

sometimes, as we'll talk about in the second half of the show, sometimes women aren't making those choices with the more modern parts of their brain. is that true?

Dawn: 25:09

Well, yeah, not if they're going, they're thinking the butterfly feeling is love and it will kind of hijack your brain and you'll say, ah, it'll be okay. It'll be fun. Yeah.

Hoyt: 25:21

So let's talk about chemical red flags early in that. You're at the coffee shop, you're doing everything right. You're sitting in a soft chair and you're drinking a warm cup of coffee, right? So you got everything right and going, and maybe you're wearing red. Yeah. So all that's going on, So you have positive attractions from that point and you have negative attractions, what are the chemical interactions that come into play when you're beginning to have those initial conversations, you started talking about the five senses for women, anything else, anything else about that? That's important.

Dawn: 25:55

well, I briefly talked about the major histocompatibility complex. That is actually part of your immune system that's sensed by the nose. So we are most attractive to people of opposite immune systems, which makes perfect sense because if you have two individuals with the same immune system, it's not going to benefit the child that's going to be produced by that union. But if you have opposite immune systems, they're going to have a stronger immune system. So we're more likely to pick an opposite.

Hoyt: 26:27

And how would you sense that? what are the indicators for that?

Dawn: 26:32

It's major histocompatibility complex. It's part of your white blood cells in your immune system. And it's sensed by your nose.

Hoyt: 26:42

Oh, interesting. So, so that's actually part of this whole pheromone kind of response.

Dawn: 26:48

Yes. In a way. Yes. And a man he's looking, he was definitely looking for pheromones. So he's looking for a pheromone called coplin Co, as in copulation. Um, and that is usually when she is fertile. So the Closer she is to ovulation, the more attractive she's going to be to that male.

Hoyt: 27:10

That's interesting. So you can track that particularly in women under 40, let's say, for example, right? All right. So red flags that come out of that from a sensory standpoint or a hormonal standpoint, things that might tell you besides recognizing the butterflies is actually a potential danger. what other things typically represent red flags in that early meeting?

Dawn: 27:38

red flags are gonna be different for everybody. I, when I coach women, I talk about Doing five must haves and five deal breakers. So when we're sitting there across from somebody, we're usually trying to judge them and we're judging them like what we want. the, do they have a job? Are they employed? Do they live in a gated community that is not the federal prison? Do they, things like that? Are they single and available? Are they not married? Some of the things women want are, is he a certain height size? You know, taller men get, women like taller men than shorter men. those are the things we're looking for. And for, males are looking for females is if she is fun and easy. so again, there's juxtaposing with males. So he wants one, a woman that's really kind of fun and easy. Right. But at the same time, if it's a damsel in distress, he's loving that too. So if she's got like this big mass of complications, he's, you know, you're going from one end to the other, but you'll go, depending on how you judge her. So you're judging her based on, is she in my league or out of my league? Is she's out of my league, like meaning she's too good to be true, and she's got a mess of problems, you're in. You're loving this. if she's, if you don't think she's in your league, if she's like, eh, then you wanted somebody that's kind of easy. And it also has to do with life experience. The younger guys and younger females are more likely to take on the complications. Because it's exciting. And you know, it's still that Noren Epinephrine. It's new. It's exciting. I can do this. It's a challenge. The male testosterone pops up at a challenge. So there's a lot that's going on that should be red flags. Like that should be a red flag. But if it, it may not be. You may be going, I'm signing up for this.

Hoyt: 29:38

I think we've all been there at one point or another. So

Dawn: 29:41

Yes.

Hoyt: 29:43

you talked about the initial attraction for men being visual because they're their sensitivity to visual, impulses are stronger than, than women, just from a, from a DNA standpoint. when you're actually, does that begin to shift for a man once the introduction has happened? And once you've started conversation and you're sitting at that coffee shop, or does that continue to play? Or is that just the initial, I guess my question is, is that just. registered primarily for initial attraction or does that visual indicator carry forward through the early stages of a relationship?

Dawn: 30:24

It carries through. It does.

Hoyt: 30:26

Once important, always important.

Dawn: 30:28

Well, so there's, if you read the book, you find out there's actually four stages. So there's attraction, there's the phase of dating where you're getting to possibly fall in love, there's actually falling in love, and then there's long term love. So the visual importance is really important in the first two stages. Falling in love, it doesn't really matter anymore because your brain's been cut off.

Hoyt: 30:54

Yeah.

Dawn: 30:55

long term love is totally different. you're, In your prefrontal cortex, you're in the thinking part of your brain, different priorities come up. you would like your woman to stay youthful and beautiful, but you also have other things that you start adding in, that she's a great maid, she's, uh, you know, all these other things become important, more important than the The physical.

Hoyt: 31:17

Oh, over time.

Dawn: 31:19

Yes. Yeah. So if she gets sick, you're not going to leave her just because maybe she's going through cancer and lost her hair because you're thinking with the different part of your brain. It's not just the physical attraction anymore.

Hoyt: 31:30

Great. Well, this is probably a good time for us to take a short break, but when we come back, I want to talk about this next phase of dating. And then I want to talk about falling in love. So we'll do that right after we get back from the break. Thanks for tuning in to Behind the Swipe. We're all about enriching your online dating journey in your forties, fifties, and beyond by bringing you intriguing insights from leading experts. And now we're about to make your listening experience even more interactive and fun. Starting next week when you listen on the Spotify app. You'll discover we've integrated instant polls and Q and a right into the show. It's a whole new way to engage with us and share your thoughts on the topics that matter to you. So give Spotify a try. It's free. And it's a fantastic way to have your voice heard on the engaging debates and discussions that we dive into. Of course, behind the swipe will still be available on all your preferred podcast platforms. But by trying Spotify. You're stepping into a more interactive podcasting world with us. Now. Back to the insights and stories in today's episode. I am back here with Dawn Masler Biggie, the love biologist and author of the book, Men chase, women choose. And we're having a fascinating conversation about the effect of neurochemistry on love and attraction. And so I wanted to pick up where we left off, Dawn, because one of the things we were talking about is, okay, we've met online, we've had this initial meeting and we're interested in taking this to a next step. So we've started dating give me the experience of a woman through that phase.

Dawn: 33:24

Okay. actually I can explain both at the same time. So when we, first start dating, women will build up oxytocin and we said oxytocin is the bonding hormone, but it also triggers the amygdala. So it's the part of the brain that sounds the alarm. So they can get a little nervous in the beginning. You know, you get a little twitchy. It's like, is he going to call? Is he going to, not going to call? If he doesn't call right away, they get all upset. but if it starts building up, it builds up with trust, touches, kissing, all those things start building up the oxytocin. The problem is oxytocin skyrockets at orgasm. So if a woman has sex right away, she's more likely to fall in love and hold that thought. Why is it falling in love a big deal? I'll tell you in a few minutes. the woman is more likely to fall in love with sex. A man, on the other hand, builds up dopamine and vasopressin. So dopamine is when he gets excited on the date and, he's having a good time. All those excitements build up the dopamine. Vasopressin is when he's sexually attracted. It builds up, but it is drops when he becomes satiated. So it's kind of like, The strip club hormone, you know, when he walks into the strip club and he keeps coming back and throwing money, it's because he's not getting what he really wants. So he keeps coming back. Right. so as the dopamine builds up, dopamine vasopressin and testosterone build up to a point where he falls in love. And it's actually, it is an enzymatic reaction. So we see, An enzyme, they build, build, build, and then something happens. So with a man, those hormones build up, and then whoosh, something happens. That's falling in love. So, why is falling in love a big deal? Because once we fall in love, your brain gets hijacked. All kinds of crazy things happen. We can actually see parts of your brain deactivate. One of the biggest thing that deactivates is called the amygdala. The one that was worried about what was happening a few minutes ago is offline. So even if you notice those big, huge red flags, It doesn't trigger that it's a problem. I make a joke that you open up his trunk, he's got a sawed off shotgun and a ski mask in Florida, and you're like, well, he's just winter deer hunting, which doesn't exist here. You start rationalizing because it's not a problem for you because your amygdala is offline, but it'll come back. In two years, it'll come back. We see the majority of divorces happen about two years into the relationship. because the amygdala came back and at first you're, everything is like sweet, he can do no wrong. And then when the brain comes back, it's like, what is wrong with him? He, why is he making that noise when he eats his food? You know, that, that kind of thing.

Hoyt: 36:13

All the things that you thought were really cute little behaviors and right before start to annoy you. that's, that's because your amygdala is coming back online.

Dawn: 36:22

Exactly. So the amygdala goes offline. I like to do this little quiz. Serotonin, hormone of happiness, up or down when you fall in love?

Hoyt: 36:32

would say

Dawn: 36:33

Top

Hoyt: 36:33

down, right?

Dawn: 36:35

It is down, but most people say up because it's the hormone of happiness. So you fall in love, it should go up, but it goes down. It goes down to the level of someone with OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. That's why you can't, you want to be with them all the time. You're totally obsessed. So, those are the hormones, parts of the brain deactivate, your prefrontal cortex comes offline, your ventral prefrontal cortex is offline, you can't even judge the person anymore. You're just like, you're totally blind here when you fall in love. That's why it's important in the beginning not to jump into a sexual relationship too quickly. The other thing is, if you, if a female jumps in too quickly, the male could lose that loving feeling because his vasopressin hasn't filled up. So a lot of times when a man has sex too early, the vasopressin stops building up and it goes offline, right? But if he thinks she's out of his league, it will continue to build up. So it depends what his judgment is at that point. But usually what happens is that he just doesn't understand why he's not attractive anymore.

Hoyt: 37:38

Why he's not attracted to her anymore.

Dawn: 37:40

Right.

Hoyt: 37:41

And, it seems like this kind of plays into this idea of male conquest. So when, when the prize has been won, he's less interested in the prize.

Dawn: 37:52

yes, in a way, there's a thing I call the, possum effect. So the question is, if there's a, Wolf chasing after opossum. When the opossum falls down and plays dead, why doesn't the wolf eat it? Because there's a little part of his brain that's saying something's wrong. This is too good to be true. I'm backing up. Same thing happens to a male when the woman should not make it that easy. Remember, we're right in the beginning. She takes the highest risk. So the one with the least risk should do the pursuing. So if he's not doing the pursuing, something's wrong in his brain.

Hoyt: 38:24

So let me ask you a related question. That's not necessarily all biology. I'm sure that there's an effect here, but there seems to be a fine line between an indication of sexual interest. and actually having sex. So for a man, if a woman is perceived to be withholding a sexual relationship is part of his judgment that she's not sexually interested in me. And does that have a negative effect on the development of the relationship? Yep. And if so, how is that mitigated

Dawn: 39:01

Ah, that is a really good point because, first of all, if you're trying to manipulate it, Each will sense it. so you basically need to go into it with a clear head of what you want. So if I want to have a relationship, I'm not looking for a sexual relationship. I want a long term relationship. I want a commitment. And I missed a piece and thank you for mentioning this. So when does a man fall in love? A man falls in love when he commits. So that's what causes that enzymatic effect. Either it can build up and he falls in love or it can have a sharp, snap when he commits to a relationship because his testosterone drops when he commits.

Hoyt: 39:41

Ooh, that might be enough reason for a lot of men not to commit.

Dawn: 39:45

Well, yeah, that's true. I mean, if you commit and you, then you, continue the relationship and you have a child and you have a baby girl, your testosterone's out. It's gone. The dad bod, you start getting soft and fat and yeah.

Hoyt: 39:59

It's, it's just evolution and biology, huh?

Dawn: 40:02

Exactly, exactly. you need to stay around. So Mother Nature doesn't want you running around trying to pursue other women. She needs you there to take care of that woman, and that baby, at least for

Hoyt: 40:15

and so that drop in testosterone evolutionarily serves to Keep the male from wandering, basically, right?

Dawn: 40:24

Exactly. Again, remember, it's all about perpetuation of the species. So what I tell women is I am very sexually attracted to you, but I don't want to get into a relationship until I have, I'm in a committed relationship.

Hoyt: 40:38

And what does that commitment, is that well defined? That

Dawn: 40:42

would be exclusivity. Yes.

Hoyt: 40:44

exclusivity? So neither of us are seeing anybody else, we're focusing on just us, right?

Dawn: 40:51

Yes.

Hoyt: 40:52

And that's when for a woman, you know that it's safe. Let's talk about the build up. to that, because you talk in your book about a specific tipping point, both for men and for women. So I'd like to hear you explain that.

Dawn: 41:09

Well, the tipping point for where we said for females is the oxytocin. So either she's going to be around him long enough where she learns to trust them feel comfortable with them. And then she can safely fall in love or they going to get into a sexual relationship and her oxytocin will skyrocket and she'll fall in love. So the risk of that is if he, if she falls in love first and he doesn't fall in love, they can be in a sexual relationship for years without a commitment.

Hoyt: 41:39

Ah, okay.

Dawn: 41:40

she may not be happy about it, but she's going to fall in love. So she's going to be obsessed. She's going to take his phone call at two o'clock in the morning and say, come on over. Cause he didn't find anybody else. she's going to be rattling around his garbage cans, trying to figure out where he's at. You know that's not a good position to be in for a female, for a male. those three hormones, dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin build up. And as we said it, it will gradually build up until he falls in love or until he commits. When he commits, he'll fall in love quicker.

Hoyt: 42:13

And so now you've gone through this process and you've fallen in love. What chemically happens to you after that? I mean, obviously people take many different directions after that. You talked about

Dawn: 42:25

Well, that's, that's where your

Hoyt: 42:26

year period.

Dawn: 42:28

Your brain goes crazy. Your serotonin levels drop, your brain goes offline, you're, you've got all kinds of stuff that's going on. your parietal lobe deactivated. It looks like the activity in it looks like you're on cocaine. all kinds of crazy stuff is happening in your brain, but you're loving life. Your amygdala is offline. You feel no pain. You're just like, this is wonderful. And you're euphoric for about two years.

Hoyt: 42:54

that's the honeymoon period, right?

Dawn: 42:56

Exactly, exactly. Some people it's shorter, but it's usually about two years.

Hoyt: 43:00

So Don, does understanding all of this, chemical interplay. be overridden with logic and, and rationality? can your cerebral portect, really grasp that and say, ah, I recognize this. So I'm going to consciously mitigate that.

Dawn: 43:19

Yes, yes. So, Mother Nature gave us this primitive brain, but she also gave us this bigger brain that covers the primitive brain, right? So it has the ability to override almost any emotion that you're feeling because if you understand it, so let's say I walk into a bar, I spot the guy from across the room and all of a sudden I have this tingling in my body because I recognize the attraction, right? I can then tell myself Oh, we've been there before. We don't want to go down that road again. I know that guy. It's the same guy. Different name. Same guy. Right? And it shuts off, it will shut off automatically. And the same thing happens is as a, I'm a married person, right? But every once in a while something happens where you like, Oh, that person's attractive. And you might actually feel a little tinge of attraction, but you're married. So you're like, It passes because my brain just overrid that attraction because I've already made a commitment,

Hoyt: 44:26

And once you're in the mode and you're in a committed relationship it has a strong hold, but you can still, understand that, oh, now I've got to keep my head about me. But in the early stages, it's not that easy, is it? the hormones are in control early on.

Dawn: 44:44

not necessarily. And that's one of the major reasons I wrote this book is because once you understand what's going on, you have the ability to make wise decisions. So, you know, the phases, you know, what's happening and you can make decisions for yourself where you don't have to all of a sudden just be swept away on the moment. And making bad decisions. It's kind of like when you're a kid and you do silly things, right? I'm just doing it because I feel like it. Right. And you do, and then you get older and you go, I know how this is going to end. So I'm not going to do that.

Hoyt: 45:19

You're less likely to say, hold my beer.

Dawn: 45:22

Exactly. Exactly.

Hoyt: 45:25

So anything else that we should talk about in terms of this, hormonal influence over our initial attraction, dating and falling in love? What have we missed here?

Dawn: 45:35

Well, we missed the fourth phase is actually long term love. And that's the phase everybody's trying to get to. And a lot of times people miss the mark the really important part about that phase is that once you get into that phase, you're really all prefrontal cortex, you're all brain. it's all about the new part of the brain, the most evolved part of the brain. So you make decisions and we see that. Love is in the same area as morals, ethics, brotherly love. It's a pure love for another human being that had, that basically is devoid of all these crazy hormonal stuff. And we also see an activity in the back of the brain that we don't see, in the earlier phases. So I said earlier that Falling in love is like cocaine on the brain. It's like this crazy static. Well, we see parts of the brain that are, the opioid receptors, which is the ones that are like a pain relieving, like an allergen, allergenic. long term love is actually more comforting. you don't feel as much pain, seriously, as much pain. you live longer with long term love, especially men, so it's a nurturing different type of love. And that's important for people to understand. And actually you can skip all phases. You can go straight to long term love. And most people don't realize that.

Hoyt: 47:04

what's the secret there, Don?

Dawn: 47:07

So the secret is making a decision. So we see it in arranged marriages. Arranged marriages actually have a better survival rate than marriages in the United States because two people make a decision. They have family support and they decide to stay together. They skip over all the traction, all the silliness, falling in love, and they go straight to long term love.

Hoyt: 47:31

And in those kind of circumstances, do the other things develop later? It's just a reversal of development?

Dawn: 47:39

It doesn't really need to. I mean, you could, there's a possibility where you could fall in love, especially if the oxytocin builds up and all that kind of stuff, but, you can go straight into long term love because that's the more wholesome love. That's the more where you're making the decision. You don't have to go through the crazy part of the falling in love. Americans love that part. you know, those romantic comedies, music, all those movies and stuff, we love that, that I want you, but I can't have you that is thrilling to us and that's whole part of the hormones, we're really testing those hormones when we do that drama, that's the norepinephrine,

Hoyt: 48:17

But getting to that long term place where you're not necessarily immune to To the impact of the dopamine or norepinephrine or but you've learned to manage all of that, To restructure the relationship and put it in a different place where it's not as

Dawn: 48:37

it's usually not happening. It's usually, you're not going to have that hormonal response as much.

Hoyt: 48:42

Oh, okay. So it's even less likely you're not going to get flooded by your

Dawn: 48:48

Right. Cause you're out and you're, you're out in your developed brain right now. You're not in there in the little primitive part. You're higher functioning in long term love.

Hoyt: 48:58

Dawn, before we wrap up, most of us who are in our 50s or 60s or beyond, don't have the same bodies that we had when we were 25 or 30. And we don't have those same chemical reactions. So how do things differ for, say, a man or a woman of 55 or 60 than they might for a 25 year old?

Dawn: 49:27

So there's good and bad. What I see a lot of times with women is that there's been built up pain and they're less likely to take the risk in a relationship because there is risk for both parts. You have to take a little bit of a risk. and They're oftentimes judging too harshly because they're so afraid of getting hurt. so that buildup pain can create a block to love on both parts. we make snap judgments, you know, all of a sudden she turns her head a certain way and it reminds you of your ex wife and you're done with this. I know where this is leading. that is probably the biggest risk you have. The other risk is we still see the hormones playing a lot of the same way. We still have 80 and 90 year olds that are like jumping into a sexual relationship and we're going, what are you guys doing? But they're like, I'm riding this wave of hormone. I'm out of here, you know?

Hoyt: 50:20

So that does not stop,

Dawn: 50:22

No. And we usually, and at that point, you're usually not worried about commitment. So you're kind of just, I'm playing with this.

Hoyt: 50:30

So it's a kind of freedom. You've almost come all the way back to your college days, right?

Dawn: 50:35

Exactly. Exactly.

Hoyt: 50:37

Well Don, thank you so much for joining us today on Behind the Swipe. This has been a fascinating conversation. conversation, but before we go I want to make sure that people know how to find your book And find out about any other programs that you've got and just how they can track you and what you're thinking online

Dawn: 50:56

Okay, well my book is on Amazon and they're probably not in the bookstores anymore, but it's Dawn Maslar, M A S L A R. The biggies came later. And I'm on Facebook, Dawn Masler Biggie. I'm not doing so much of the relationship stuff anymore. I've got more into art, but feel free to stop in and check me out. And I'm always willing to talk to people about this stuff.

Hoyt: 51:21

Well, I will make sure that I put, links to your web page and you've got a couple of really interesting TED Talks out there too. So I will put links to that up in the, in the show notes page.

Dawn: 51:31

That'd be fabulous.

Hoyt: 51:32

Well, thanks again for coming today, Don. I really appreciate it.

Dawn: 51:35

Thank you so much for having me.

Hoyt: 51:41

As we wrap up today's journey through the intricate dance of neurochemistry and its impact on love and attraction. It's clear that the potent and predictable influence of hormones like dopamine and oxytocin. Play a significant role in our romantic lives. But as we've discovered with Dawn Mosler biggie, Our understanding of these autonomic responses. Doesn't mean surrendering to them as our destiny. Recognizing this way that these chemicals hold over our feelings and actions. Opens the door to a fascinating possibility. The power of our advanced rational brain to override and guide. These primal impulses. By bringing these subconscious processes into the light. We gained the ability to pause, reflect. And let logical suede when it truly matters. This awareness doesn't diminish the magic of love. Rather it empowers us to approach our romantic connections with both the wonder of the heart. And the discernment of the mind. So as we close this chapter of our neurochemical romance, Remember that the flutter of attraction and the depth of connection. Our as much a part of our biological makeup as they are the narratives of our lives. And in that intersection of science and story. We find not just the how of love, but it's why. Enriching our understanding and appreciation of this most human of experiences. Thanks to Dawn Mosler biggie for sharing her insights and expertise. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock. Join us again next week for another new episode of Behind the Swipe. Until then. Swipe fearlessly.