Speaker 1: 0:03

This is Behind the Swipe, the podcast that takes you inside the lives of real men and women over 40 who have taken the plunge into the often murky and sometimes exhilarating world of online dating. Each week we explore new topics through the experiences and expectations of real online daters just like you. I'm your host, hoyt Priceock. Join me as we peel back the one-dimensional dating profiles to discover the real men and women behind the swipe. Welcome to this week's episode of Behind the Swipe. You know, every year, matchcom commissions a study of singles in America and publishes those results. Mind you, these are not just Matchcom users, but a broad, scientifically selected 5,000 plus singles of all ages and walks of life. But some of the results are fascinating and probably deserving of a full episode all on their own. But one of the results that really stood out for me was this 46% of American singles consider astrological compatibility to be a key factor in whether a relationship can work. That's half of us.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Now I can't say that I'll never do an episode on astrological compatibility, but personally I prefer to focus on more scientific and research-backed insights on dating behaviors and relationship tools. So today we're going to talk about attachment styles and the roles they play in relationship dynamics. I have to confess that my knowledge of the importance of attachment styles was, to say the least, lacking. So today I'm joined by Atlanta therapist Michelle Morris. Michelle specializes in both Imago relationship therapy and attachment. In this episode we'll hear what attachment theory is, how to find out your attachment style and, most importantly, how you can use this knowledge to make your dating life, and indeed all of your relationships, the fullest and richest they can be, whether your style is secure, anxious or avoidant. I hope you'll learn as much as I did from this fascinating conversation. So let's jump into today's discussion. Michelle Morris, welcome to Behind the Swipe. I'm so glad you're here with us today.

Speaker 2: 2:38

Very exciting. I'm glad to be here too.

Speaker 1: 2:41

You know why I wanted to do this episode, michelle, is because, frankly, we're going to talk about attachment styles and we're going to talk about how they play out in dating relationships. But I was not really particularly well-versed in attachment theory and attachment styles and it just kept coming up and coming up with daters that I talked to with the coaches that I've had on the program. So I did a little bit of research and I said, well, this is kind of important in any kind of relationship, particularly in early romantic relationships. I know you've got a lot of expertise in this field. I want to tap into that. But before we do that, tell us a little bit about you and your practice.

Speaker 2: 3:31

So I have been doing therapy oh my goodness, 30 plus years up and down the East Coast and, honestly, it wasn't until I became a certified amago therapist relationship therapist that I myself really understood the power of attachment and the importance, not only in relationships but self-understanding and really just about everything relationships with everything, mostly ourselves. We are our worst nightmares, as we kind of coined in the therapy arena, and when we don't understand our attachment style it can really play a number on us. So understanding it first from John Bulby he developed this theory in the 50s way back when, setting that the emotional and social development of infants is deeply shaped by their relationships with their caregivers. And of course that makes sense, because when we're an infant we can't beat ourselves. We have to depend on our caregivers for survival and, as we know, sometimes those caregivers are present both emotionally and physically, and oftentimes, with all due respect, they are not. So that starts the whole path.

Speaker 2: 4:47

We said that we come out of the womb an empty slate. Well, those moments out of the womb begin the journey of attachment, and from zero to two years old that attachment style is conditioned in us and then it's stored in the subconscious. But when we understand what went on after the zero to two years? Because obviously we don't know, zero to two years, what's going on? Because we're an infant and as we continue to develop through our childhood, it really gets conditioned with the childhood wounds. Wow, the childhood wounds. That's another big site term the childhood wounds, we all have them.

Speaker 2: 5:27

So the childhood wounds, there's always that one caregiver. And this is where the amago piece comes in, because the attachment piece and the childhood wounds, the core wounds that we have, they're all interrelated. So when we understand that we go through childhood and there's that one caregiver that we just could not get our needs met with that one caregiver, we shut down parts of ourselves in order to get more pleasure and less pain, and then we travel through life with that wound and then we do it in adult relationships. That means that the whole purpose of adult relationships is to heal these childhood wounds. Ding, ding, ding. Attachment style. Again, we have to understand what that attachment style is.

Speaker 2: 6:09

So, circling back, john Bulby discovered this in the 50s, realizing that there are some wounds, and he did a whole bunch of things. But it really was Mary Ainsworth that later expanded on this theory and developed the three attachment styles that really we focus on today the secure attachment style that we all long for, and research, I think, says that 50% of us have that. I don't see that in my practice at all. I think we're bad self-reporters because a lot of us really are the next one anxious, anxious, attachment, and then a dismissive, the avoidant, the avoidant. So we have secure, we have anxious and we have avoidant. The secure, of course, is exactly what it might entail you cry. We have it's called, I think, approach parents. We have the parents that approach the crying incident and they sue them and they know that every time they express an emotion, a parent's there and they're rewarded. So they go through life knowing, okay, all is right, all is right with the world. I cry, somebody comes and sues me and helps me, that's good. Later that child evolves into that attachment style as being able to yes, you guessed it express their emotion. They can express them and they can communicate to adults because you know what that worked for them right out of the womb.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Unfortunately for the anxious, we have a parent that is warm and that is caring, but it's inconsistent. It's inconsistent and the parent might be a working parent, the parent might have other things going on and the child might have to go to daycare. Child goes to daycare and there are other kids there and the warmth and consistency is not there. So guess what happens to the anxious child? They have an attachment style. That here's abandonment. They fear they're being excluded. They don't know if it's coming, if it's going, and that then becomes their childhood wound.

Speaker 2: 8:06

So you can imagine then, what that looks like relationally. They're kind of clinging and they need reassurance, entering in the avoidant, the avoidant attachment style. This comes about with parents that just aren't emotionally available. They do their best but they're just not emotionally available. So when this child is showing emotion, the parent might say, hey, toughen up, no time for that, just toughen up. What are you talking about? So the child isn't rewarded, the child isn't rewarded for the emotions.

Speaker 2: 8:39

So you can imagine what that might look like relationally. They take care of themselves. They can't rely on others. They don't express their emotions, they keep it to themselves. Relationally, they don't want to feel that somebody might abandon them or not really give them appreciation, so they just pull away. When it gets too close, they just pull away. So those are pretty predominant with the attachment styles. Understanding them is key and we really just don't know how to do that. I remember being trained by Horval Hendricks at Fordham University in New York and I'm sitting there going, and I was already, oh my goodness, many, many years into practicing and had children that were already, I think, 11 and 8. And I'm sitting there going oh my God, I'd messed my kids up. Oh wow, oh what. Oh wow, no, yeah, so we all do the best we can. I think it's important as we continue to talk about this yeah, our parents did this, but they're coming from a place where they did the best that they could.

Speaker 1: 9:42

Well, that makes perfect sense. So, across the population, though, like is it? You said it's less, you think it's less than 50%. That are actually securely attached right.

Speaker 2: 9:56

I mean, come on, we all have anxiety, we all have a level of anxiety and we're supposed to, or we wouldn't be great at, say, swimming, we wouldn't be great at doing all the things we do because we wouldn't push ourselves. But we can have that anxiety to move us.

Speaker 1: 10:12

So it's survival mechanism essentially right.

Speaker 2: 10:15

Absolutely Everything. The mind-body connection is. I mean, we have the nervous system, the parasympathetic and the sympathetic, our nervous system, we have the vagal nerve. It's one job all the time. Is it safe or is it dangerous? And if we don't understand our attachment styles, for the avoidant, anything could be dangerous If somebody wants something from them they're not going to be able to give it, or for somebody that has the anxious attachment style. Why didn't they call me back? Where are they? What, what, what, what? You know, there's just an unknowing all the time. And our nervous system is being activated all the time.

Speaker 1: 10:50

So as an adult, this operates mostly subconsciously. Is that correct?

Speaker 2: 10:55

Yes, the subconscious is running the show, no matter how much. The conscious mind says I don't want to do that, I'm not going to do this. The subconscious does not hear that.

Speaker 1: 11:06

That seems kind of fatalistic in some ways is that this is baked into you at an age when you're not cognitively processing this. You're emotionally processing this behavior, right.

Speaker 2: 11:24

And so it's baked in.

Speaker 1: 11:25

So my question is are you locked into that? Are you locked in the attachment style?

Speaker 2: 11:31

No, no, absolutely not. On Freudian train. And Freud believed, when you get the brain, that you're born with the good brain, the bad brain, the whatever brain, which is why he developed the defense mechanisms, denial, intellectualization, rational. We're going to take care of the brain. Right, you have to take care of the brain. What we know today about neuroscience were creatures of habit. 21 day fix, 21 day rehab. We can make or break a habit in 21 days. Being mindful and consistent, we can change our attachment style with delving deeper into the understanding of our core wounds, understanding how it developed and, guess what, how it's not working for us. We all want to be securely attached, we all want rainbows and unicorns. Well, we can do it. So I say Freud would be elated today if he knew that we can change the wiring. We do and we can have changed. We can do it. We have to be consistent and mindful.

Speaker 1: 12:29

So I want to talk more about that. But you also mentioned an Imago relationship therapy. How does that work with attachment styles? Is it the same thing?

Speaker 2: 12:41

Imago therapy is all about understanding the childhood wounds. Understanding the childhood wounds and how we are seriously today in our current relationship, operating from before our frontal lobe was born. When our frontal lobe is fully formed, that comes today about 21, 22, 23. But when our frontal lobe is fully formed, it is locked in, our brain is formed and guess what? That is our operating system. That is like the motherboard of a computer. This is what we're operating from and that's pretty insulting because we are very smart people but emotionally we are operating from that age. So when we understand our childhood wounds and we understand how we have to find oh, this is getting in deep about Imago. Incompatibility is compatibility, because we gravitate towards the other person, because they have parts of themselves that they show us that we shut down in childhood in order to get more pleasure and less pain. So let me back up. So when we go through childhood, we have one caregiver that we did not get our needs met with and we learned how to shut parts of ourselves down with those caregivers in order to get more pleasure and less pain. For example, if we go to dad and we're like dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, and he's like no, stop bothering me go to your room. Well, we learned very early on not to come home with the straight A paper and not to come home with the artwork that we want to show him and get praised for. We don't bother. So guess what we do? We find a partner then subconsciously that we gravitate towards that has those characteristics of dad. But we do the same thing, we try to get our needs met the same way and it doesn't work. So the whole purpose of adult relationships is to heal those wounds and do something different, because the dad that's showing up for you, they have childhood wounds and they see parts in you that they shut down, that they have to do something different. So they say the whole purpose of adult relationships is to feel these childhood wounds. That's a whole. Those movies that we see, the two they go oh, you complete me, you complete me. That's what that's all about.

Speaker 2: 15:03

Unfortunately. What happens? Because of our lack of awareness, because we don't understand these wounds, because we think, oh, that was in childhood, we're so much different than that. We continue to do the same thing and then in six months it is the power struggle. They say that rainbows and unicorns of that, oh, you complete me, and all the love it. Six months. It now becomes the source of a power struggle, because you look at that other person to join you and when they don't, it creates anxiety. And that other person thinks that you're going to calm down, and when they don't, they just keep going the other way. So we have the chase, we have the runner and the chaser and it just goes on and on and on until we understand our wounds and then until we understand how to process them. So the other person knows we make sense and we start to understand one another more differently and we do things differently. That's a mago, that's the work that I do and it's amazing couples relationship therapy because it works. We make sense, we look crazy to the other person.

Speaker 1: 16:05

So I want to attach this to the idea of early relationships. But before we do that, how do people even know what their attachment style is? How do they figure this out?

Speaker 2: 16:19

Well, what I help them with is going to the core childhood wounds. And it's so easy for me because this is my life's work, so I can see it pretty quickly and I can also understand what the conflicts are. I see it immediately in my office with a husband and a wife the partners. I can see it immediately. So when they understand their childhood wounds, when we go through a series of different papers and worksheets and you can even go online and we can talk about it at the end of this segment, when you understand what those are and how they're playing out, you're in control. You have more awareness. Knowledge is power. When you understand and then you understand what you're doing, it isn't working.

Speaker 2: 17:00

So I like when I find out from with all due respect, I don't want to go gender bias, but women were just kind of more emotional and open. So if the spouse is sitting in front of me the male, and maybe he's a big exact I'll say what do you do for a living? And they tell me and I say, okay, so if you're not meeting your quota, your team's not meeting the quota by the end of the month, and it's something consistent. Are you going to keep using the same protocol or are you going to do something different? I said that's all I'm teaching you. I'm teaching you a way to understand and do something different to have a better outcome. You're here in couples therapy. You want to understand first yourself, but your partner and how you're landing on them. It's a formula what one person needs, the other person is telling them how to get that need met and vice versa. It's just a fascinating process and it's all about understanding bottom up. We have to go bottom up.

Speaker 1: 17:55

You had talked about how people often will find themselves seeking a relationship with that caregiver or parent model that, at the end of the day, doesn't really serve them very well. Do you have a sense of why that is, and is that something destructive? I mean, if you understand your attachment style and you're in these early engagements around a potential romantic relationship, can you teach yourself to oh, I shouldn't go there? Or is it more about someone with attachment style? And an anxious attachment style can be with someone that's got an avoidant attachment style, as long as they're communicating well?

Speaker 2: 18:41

So a couple of things here. You initially said so. If you do understand your attachment style, then to me that's an assumption that they understand their core wounds and they worked on it so they then evolve into secure. So a secure attachment style is going to be ahead of the game. They're going to be able to immediately see if this person really is not worth the time and effort. You'll know. Or they'll be able to communicate hey, and then they'll see that that's not going to go anywhere, or they'll communicate hey, and the other person might be oh, oh, oh, okay, Teach me, teach me. So the second part is to have an anxious and an avoidant. They are the perfect match in the Amago land, I know. They are the perfect match with the understanding that they have to then be able to have some deeper dive into themselves. It's going to be completely frustrating and this is why a lot of relationships continue to fail and continue to fail and continue to fail.

Speaker 2: 19:43

You know, I've had people walk into my office and say I'm just not supposed to be in a relationship or I'm the most unlucky person, and I'll say no, you're the common denominator. Ah, you're the common denominator in each of these relationships and let's string them together. You will hear them say the same issues in each relationship and they just feel like there's nobody out there and I'll say you're not out there. The problem is here. You need to understand you first and understand what your half is, instead of there's just nobody out there for me. Now, I'm just not supposed to be with anybody.

Speaker 1: 20:17

Right. Give me a hypothetical example of that. A hypothetical example of the anxious and the avoidant, or no, no, if someone who is stepping in that same hole every time and not recognizing it. So pick a style and let's walk through what they might be getting wrong in sequential relationships, that they come up and say, yeah, they're just a bunch of idiots out there and I'm not going to play the game anymore.

Speaker 2: 20:48

So for the avoidant, that could mean that they got too close all the time and they just couldn't handle it. So they self-advertage, they're very self-advertaging, they just get too close, they want it, they want it, they want it. But then there it is and they just feel like they're going to be suffocated and they're going to be in golf and they abort, abort, abort. And so they use that platform, right, they use that platform to justify and to keep themselves safe and secure right by themselves, despite them really knowing that they want to be in a relationship. They want to have. That it's just too costly for them, too costly and, as far as the anxious, they will just go into a hole. Oh, my goodness, I'm just not worthy. I'm never going to be good enough. Nobody is ever going to want to be with me.

Speaker 2: 21:36

They just fear abandonment and rejection so much. It's different for them, but they take a different approach than the avoidant. They just keep going, going for it, going for it, going for it. They just keep putting themselves out there. But they just feel like they're never going to get what they need because there's something inherently wrong with them. They're just not worthy. But their fear of being alone overtakes and they keep putting themselves out there versus the avoidant, their fear of being swallowed up and trapped. They just don't do it.

Speaker 1: 22:07

So someone who's got an attachment style that's maybe an anxious attachment style and, through whatever source, begins to recognize oh, this is a challenge, and they learn about it. And then they start to do some work on themselves and they evolve toward a more secure attachment style. So you have someone that has an anxious attachment style and they've been stepping in these same holes and not finding a great match for them and they recognize, they come to recognize that they are the common denominator and they've got some research to do and some work to do on it. So is their goal then to evolve more toward a secure attachment style.

Speaker 2: 22:54

They will evolve and then they will show up differently. And when they show up differently, they will attract differently. How about that?

Speaker 1: 23:03

Oh, I love that idea.

Speaker 2: 23:05

They will show up differently where they know there's an other and the other is the partner, and they have their own journey, they have their own attachment style, they have their own gig going on. So then they won't take it so personally, they'll self-serve. When that other doesn't text them back in a matter of five seconds, they'll self-serve and go. Oh okay, so he's busy or he's got something else going on. They won't say I'm not worthy, he doesn't like me. I just have to text him again and say where are you?

Speaker 1: 23:36

Where are?

Speaker 2: 23:36

you. When they show up differently, they will attract differently. So when we understand our attachment in our core words and we do work in everything is individual and when we do it individually, then we show up and then we don't have the tolerance for the avoidant attachment. We do want to gravitate more to somebody that's on our same level, right, that's more securely attached, and we'll be okay with that.

Speaker 1: 24:02

Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 24:04

Until we do understand ourselves. But we are being authentic. We are going from an emotional standpoint of hey, what are we doing this weekend? Are we going to get away? We're operating really from what we need, but in a way that we think we're showing the other how much we care. Meanwhile, on the other side they're feeling suffocated and they don't know what to do. So the more they pull back, the more we go towards and it's just such a cluster. But it's all we have until we really unlock the bottom up zero to two years old and understanding what our caregiver showed up for us.

Speaker 1: 24:41

And the second half of the show. I want to dig into the specifics of how people can use this realization about what their own tendencies are, what their own childhood wounds are, and have empathy for this prospective partner. So this is probably a good place to take a short break and we'll be back with Michelle Morris in just a moment. We have a very exciting new initiative in the works for the next few months and we need your help. In conjunction with our partner, goodbetternextcom, we are organizing a network of your favorite podcast in one easy to find place. Our hope is that it will become the go-to place to find your next favorite podcast, and this is where you come in. Do you have two or three favorite podcasts where the content is focused on the topics that women over 45 are most interested in? We want to know. We'll feature categories on not just dating and relationships, like behind the swipe, but health, wellness, exercise, fitness, the natural and career goals and challenges, and even categories for fun and travel. So if you know a great podcast that might belong and is worthy of being discovered by other listeners like you, please reach out to me by DMing me on Instagram or Facebook, or just drop me an email at boyk, at behindtheswipecom, and stay tuned for exciting news on this initiative over the next few months.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Now let's get back to the second half of our show. So we are back with Michelle Morris, who's a therapist here in Atlanta specializing in emogotherapy and attachment styles. I'm just fascinated with this, michelle. This whole topic is a revelation to me. Now I had done I will give you a quick anecdote is that I had gone through emogotherapy 30 something years ago and it was actually. It was really fantastic and, as a matter of fact, it was so important to me that when my wife, katie, and I met within 10 days of us meeting, because I knew that this could be something special, I dragged Katie into a session with Wendy Patterson.

Speaker 2: 27:07

Wow.

Speaker 1: 27:08

Yeah, because I really wanted to understand am I, am I seeing something here? Am I not seeing something here? And that was a smart decision. I think she was just hivering me by going 10 days 10 days. Yeah Well, part of the back story there was I was 45 days away from moving out of Atlanta and back to California, so I was on deadline to figure out if this was worth staying in Atlanta for.

Speaker 2: 27:34

Wow.

Speaker 1: 27:35

Yes.

Speaker 2: 27:36

And today that story played out.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Oh yeah, it was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Katie found that too and it was an indicator to her. Look, I'm serious about doing the work on a relationship here, making sure that we don't preemptively fall into any of these traps that could be fatal in a relationship. So that's my story. I met with the Amago, but you had indicated that there were some interesting factors with attachment theory in your relationship. Now you had been divorced. Tell me more about your story.

Speaker 2: 28:13

It's kind of hard being a relationship expert in your hometown of Hollidaysburg, pennsylvania, and everybody knows you, and then, all of a sudden, you're getting a divorce. So sadly, I and that is actually why I became an amygotherapist a long time ago, 2011, to try to save my marriage I have been divorced in it, obviously, and it'll be four years this September and I had the opportunity to move back here to Atlanta, georgia, from Pennsylvania during the pandemic Again, I did, and I was here for probably a month and I'd already been living alone in Holland, in Pennsylvania, for a year, yeah, a year until my son graduated and my friend said you know, you need to get on a dating site. You just I'm like, no, no, no, I'm too old, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, okay, I don't know why, I just just did it one night and wow, I just was amazed at what was out there. You know, I'd been married for 20, 25 years and with him for 28 years, so I had never been on a dating site. And I'm like, wow, this candy store, holy moly. But wow, did I learn a lot about myself? I learned a lot about myself. Even therapists have their own own issues that they think they have resolved. And then you're on a dating website and you're putting pictures of yourself out there and you're talking about yourself Not an easy thing to do when the demise of your relationship was because of another woman. So a lot of soul searching, a lot of this, a lot of that.

Speaker 2: 29:42

And then enter somebody with a completely different attachment style yes, mine has always been an anxious attachment style and work very hard on that, I feel like I'm doing pretty good until you get divorced and realize, oh no, okay, we need to start all over again and figure this out. Well, it's some level. But then you are with an avoidant yeah, the two opposites. And wow, okay, really, rainbows and unicorns at first. And then it's the push away. Yeah, okay, let's talk about this man that I'm falling in love with, a man that has so many amazing qualities, but kind of emotional connectedness not on the top three or five or 10.

Speaker 2: 30:34

So when you have the communication style like we talked about before, how do you deal with it? How do you move past it? You have to understand it and you have to be able to communicate it. So yay me, I'm a therapist, and yay him, he's a very smart man and he loves to learn. So he knows all about these attachment styles now and he is embracing them and we continue.

Speaker 2: 30:57

And he knew I was doing this podcast and and, yeah, I keep sharing information and we keep working on it and we laugh about it. Sometimes it's not very funny because he gets very close and pushes away yes, no, yes, no, off, on, off on. So it's me understanding him and him being okay with taking all my feedback and being okay with me going hey, hey, hey, hey, hey and chasing him when he runs away. So it's an interesting combination. We enjoy each other very much and it's got a great potential. Why? Because we're working on it. We're working on it, we're learning, we're understanding. He's actually going to be with me assisting Bob and Wendy Patterson in-house to one of their Amago workshops, which I'm very excited about.

Speaker 1: 31:49

That's exciting, very exciting.

Speaker 2: 31:52

It's scary, it's scary, it's scary, it's scary, it's scary parts over. It's been three. It'll be three years. I got, I got it. Number now yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:00

So did he own up to his tendency toward avoidance 100%.

Speaker 2: 32:05

But the problem was he just think there's anything wrong with that. I needed to learn how to be more alone.

Speaker 1: 32:11

Yeah, yeah, people can be alone.

Speaker 2: 32:15

People don't need to be in relationship. So that has been a thing that we've worked on a lot, because we are designed to be in relationship, we are supposed to be in relationship. We need to be in relationship Doesn't mean alone time isn't important. It is, but there has to be a balance.

Speaker 1: 32:32

So let's talk about how these attachment styles play into early relationships. I'm assuming that there are no tells in a profile that you might be coming across online to say that's avoidant or that's secure, or are there? Are there tells in profiles?

Speaker 2: 32:54

Oh sure, absolutely. I enjoy my alone time, not looking for commitment. I'm not available. A whole lot. That would be the what the avoidant. Just they're just putting those disqualifiers out there, right, they're just making it known Don't tread on my area, I'm okay by myself. I'm just out here and just when I let you in, you're lucky. That's about it, right. And then there's the anxious one that has just this huge profile I like, wants an advantage, I like this and I like that and I'm a giver and I'm a pleaser and I'm you know, you can tell, you can tell. The thing is we don't do anything about it. This is interesting.

Speaker 1: 33:39

That's interesting. Yeah, we ignore the flags.

Speaker 2: 33:42

Why? Because we're gravitating towards those things that we need to do, those things that we need to be with to heal those childhood wounds. But that's subconscious level. We actually ignore the flags. So many people will say to me okay, you need to do a group on how to date your divorce, because I do not want the same relationship. I can't find somebody else that's going to be the same as a man. I just divorce and I say well, you got to start at home, first with yourself. It's not about a group learning about the other. You need a group to learn about you, because you're the common denominator. These flights have been smacking you in the face and you've just been taking it. You've just been ignoring them. The red flags are always there. We read them and we go oh hi, what are you?

Speaker 1: 34:33

doing.

Speaker 2: 34:34

Hi, yeah, let's make a date. Okay. Then you look back and go oh my God, it's right there in this profile. Why did I do that?

Speaker 1: 34:43

Well, it sounds, michelle, like it's not that you're not seeing the flags or that you're ignoring the flags, but something in your subconscious is actually drawing you to those flags.

Speaker 2: 34:55

If that operating system that I talked about it's when that frontal lobe is locked in, that is your operating system.

Speaker 1: 35:02

Yeah, and Apple's not upgrading that other on the early basis, you know.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Hi, yeah, that's what we're subconsciously acting on and we have to bring it to conscious awareness. So we know oh my goodness, I do make sense. And this is why knowledge is power, when you understand the why, and then you forgive and you understand that the parents do the best that they can given what they have, but we're just walking around these subconscious beings or just walking around Earth with complete unawareness Fascinating.

Speaker 1: 35:35

And it's really difficult to be in a void and attachment style than women and vice versa. I don't know that the research Is that too much of a generalization.

Speaker 2: 35:44

I don't know that the research really points to that, but that does have something to do with the. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus. The gender differences. If we go back to the men or hunters, women are the gatherers. We can't all be emotionally loving and sealed. I mean we need to have somebody go out there and shoot the deer to feed us, right? So there is something there with that, where the joke always was when two guys fight at the office, they punch each other in the arm and they go. Okay, bob, see it tomorrow. Okay, ralph, right.

Speaker 2: 36:17

Two women fight at the office. It goes on forever. It's an emotional thing, it's a devastating thing. They're pulling other people in to help them and to support them. Men don't do that, right, men don't do that. So I guess more studies need to be done on that. They might fall into that category more. It would make sense Like they're just not going to deal with it, just just no, nothing to deal with it.

Speaker 1: 36:44

I understand that we started to talk about whether certain online dating sites might be better for people with particular attachment styles, and I'm I'm thinking about that in terms of something like let's take opposite ends of a spectrum, so something like a tender versus an okay Cupid, and and when I say that I mean tender, quick, not much information You're called on to make a quick, snap decision, whereas okay Cupid asks you a million questions that are designed to expose elements of your personality, of your sense of humor, all of those kinds of things. So, as two opposite ends of the spectrum, is that something that seems to make sense? It seems to make sense to you Someone with a particular attachment style might be better suited for a one site versus another.

Speaker 2: 37:39

I would think it would be a pull, absolutely. The thing that comes to mind is the bumble-lap for the avoidant, because if it's a heterosexual male and he's avoidantly attached, they might want to use that app because the women message them first. This would leave the avoidantly attached person in an all-too-comfortable position to sit and wait for the other person to pursue them and also gives them ample time to decide if they're comfortable enough to explore the romantic opportunities presented to them or continue to play the waiting game in a different way. I would think that would be more for the avoidant, but for the anxious it would be the one that you just described.

Speaker 2: 38:20

They would want to know all of that stuff, because that's how their profile is going to look.

Speaker 2: 38:25

That would make them feel more comfortable. Because what does the anxious, attached person want? They want connection in that way where the person is talking, talking, talking and sharing to make because it self-sues them. That's the whole thing. The anxious wants that because they can't sue themself. They want the other to constantly meet their needs and to self-sue them. They're going to go for that app that there's a whole description of who that other person is and go oh my gosh, they're just like me. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1: 38:57

Well, I guess, if you're online dating, wouldn't it be preferable, regardless of your attachment style to the attached, to a securely attached person? No, oh tell me about that.

Speaker 2: 39:07

No, that would be very frightening. That you're with somebody that's so much better than you. That's frightening. They're communicating and they're setting boundaries and they're clear and I can't do that. You're not going to consciously know that, but you're going to like no, no, no, they're too good for me, for the anxious. I'll never meet their knee, I'll never be able to measure up and, oh my goodness, they have it all. They're so part no.

Speaker 1: 39:34

Interesting, interesting.

Speaker 2: 39:39

Yeah, it's too much.

Speaker 1: 39:41

Michelle, let's talk about some things that people can do early on in relationships, when you first start getting indicators that either you're seeking that same archetype that was problematic for you in your formative years in this person that you're interested in, what are some specific things that a person who's done some work on themselves can begin to do to give that relationship a really good chance to succeed.

Speaker 2: 40:11

I remember sitting in a Penn State psychology class way back in my undergraduate years and it was all about existential psychology. I have an anxious attachment style that I've worked very hard on throughout my years. Back in those Penn State days I did not know anything about this. The professor said existential you're born alone, you live alone and you die alone. I remember going oh that is just such a crock, what? No, somebody's grabbing you out of the womb, somebody's taking care of you, and then you're in a relationship. What do you mean? You're born alone, you live alone, you die alone. Well, folks, sadly, everything is up, it's up to us and I have come to realize that it is in a sense that. But everything is up to us. We are born alone, we live alone, we die alone.

Speaker 2: 41:02

But it's really about understanding. Of course we're not alone. Of course we are with people, of course, of course. But you know what we are alone in? That we have to understand ourselves. We have to give ourselves what we don't get. We have to understand what it is, relationally that we're not getting and learn how to give it to ourselves. Now, if that comes later, in the relationship that you're already with somebody that has the avoidant and you're the anxious. It is all about clear communication and setting boundaries, being vulnerable and sharing how that person is impacting you, but understanding that they're doing the best that they can and hopefully getting them to do their own work, and being enlightened by what their wounds are and what their attachment style is. We can't rely on somebody else to fix us.

Speaker 1: 41:52

Let's talk about a scenario where an anxiously attached person and an avoidant attached person are in the early stages of a relationship. Let's say that the anxiously attached person is aware enough that, oh, this difference exists. How do you bring that up in a relationship? When should you bring that up?

Speaker 2: 42:17

If the anxious, attached person is aware and they're not sure how to bridge that to the avoidant, the best thing always to say is help me understand what's it like being with me. What do you mean by that? No, what's it like being with me? Am I suffocating? Am I? I don't know. Tell me what's it like being with me. If that doesn't go anywhere, you could look at them and say what's it like being you? We're getting to know each other. What's it like being you? I could speak about my guy.

Speaker 2: 42:54

He is first generation Italian from Montreal. His parents, he's got two other brothers. He's lived in Atlanta, I think I don't know 25, 26, 27 years. What was it like being you? What's it like being an immigrant living in a different country? What was it like being you?

Speaker 2: 43:12

It's amazing what you learn when you give the floor over to the other like that without saying well, what was your childhood like? Oh, my goodness, You've got some things going on here, If you can say it in a way that you're curious. Curious it's what I help my clients with. All the time we don't know the person that we're living with and that we're building lives with. We really don't. So when we're curious and we can say, hey, help me understand. What's it like being you? Oh, that could be really scary at first for that person, but when you come from a place of curiosity, it's amazing what you learn. I encourage my parents to say it to their children. So what's it like having me as your father? What's it like having me as your mother? Oh, but be prepared to hear what they're about to tell you.

Speaker 1: 43:57

But it's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 43:58

When you really want to know the other person, you learn so much. And if it's a roadblock, if it continues to be such a roadblock that you can't go in here, that's when you say, that's not my person. Yeah, that's not my person.

Speaker 1: 44:14

One of the best pieces of advice that I've heard and it's been from several folks on the show is that you need a broad set of experiences in dating, not just because there are all these different types of people. You may have different attachment styles, different lifestyles, things that you didn't think would be attractive to you turn out to be attractive to you. So see a lot of people. See a lot of people before you start to get serious about I'm going to create this long-term relationship with that person, because it teaches you what you like and don't like, what works for you, what your red flags are, what your non-starters are, but it also teaches you about yourself. So, michelle, how would you counsel people in using dating to help understand themselves, given their attachment style?

Speaker 2: 45:12

That's a big question. It's a big question because what I tell my clients is right now we're having one conversation between well, everybody's hearing this but everybody's perceiving it differently, depending on where they are and what their wounds are and whatnot. That could be great for some people, but for many that could be devastating. The constant rejection, the constant waiting. And it depends on age, it depends on how many children you have or where you are, at what stage of life. I think that's good for a lot of people, but I think it's also very depending on where you are and what point of your life. I'm not saying my age 61, I'm not saying that I'm at a time but certainly when you know what your goals are and you know what you want and you find that person, why would you want to search elsewhere?

Speaker 1: 46:06

Right.

Speaker 2: 46:09

However, if that person, as you just said before, it's not my person, if that person isn't showing up and really doesn't have same goals, you've got to keep searching. We're going to go back to a while ago. Here's the a while ago piece 300 million plus factors each of us have. What does that mean? What are factors Out of the womb? We're touching things, we're licking things, we're learning, learning, learning. We have 300 million plus factors about ourselves. They're changing right now. People listening to this podcast, they're thinking different things. That's my touch with all. They're changing right Now.

Speaker 2: 46:46

When we're in relationship, let's say we have a partner of two years or a partner of five years, or our partner of 25 years, research has told us that with that partner of those different, varying years, we only know drum roll, please 20 to 200 of those factors about the person that we're in a relationship with.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Why and that's insulting, that's what? And I use this in therapy with my couples all the time and they're just, I'm like, blown away because it's the story, the story that we make up about the other person's behavior. That's what we go on. We come home late for work and we know that our wife does not like us late for work and hell. It's about to be paid and we walk in the door and we see a look on their face and we know what's coming and we, often we run back to the back, right. Well, when we come back out, the wife says well, thanks a lot, why did you do that? I was late and I know you get upset and I didn't want to hear it. No, I ran over the neighbor's cat and I'm very upset. I backed out and I ran over the neighbor's cat. So we just assume all the time from body language, from tone of voice, what's happening and we don't. We don't know, we don't know.

Speaker 1: 48:00

And can't. That's just too many, there's too much to know. So you're saying it's a constant discovery.

Speaker 2: 48:05

Help me understand. It's a guess. It's a constant curiosity which is hey, how was your day? Goodbye, okay. What do we do with our children when we learned that we can't say how was your day to our kids when they were growing up and they'd say, fine, you'd have to say so. Tell me one thing funny that happened today. Oh, my goodness, I could tell you so many funny things about this boy that my son was in school with. Every day we would laugh at dinner hysterically. But if I said, hey, how was your day? Okay, it's all about that curiosity, all about being curious and getting into that other person's world that we're about to build a life with. They're about to have a relationship with.

Speaker 1: 48:40

So, michelle, we've talked a lot about how attachment styles play into relationships, but it sounds to me like this is a broader life skill that is available for people, because it's not just the romantic relationships that are important in your life. So can you take it more broadly for me and tell me what people stand to gain when they understand both their attachment style and the attachment styles of the people like colleagues at work, bosses, neighbors? So let's open it up for a second here on what they can benefit from.

Speaker 2: 49:21

So when you understand your attachment style and you understand that you are a really kind, caring, giving the anxious attached, they're superpowers man. They are kind, caring, selfless people, pleasing to the nth degree. I'm not saying that's something you want to strive for. They forget themselves. Everybody is always in front of them. So when you're that person and your T's are crossing, your eyes are dotted, and you walk into work and you walk into work and they say, hey, the boss wants to see you. You immediately think you did something wrong, you're going to get fired, you're not worthy, you're not good enough, you did something wrong. You're going to enter into that meeting with that anxiety and that, your nervous system being completely deactivated. Then he's like hey, I just wanted to patch on the back, you did a great job last week. You're going oh.

Speaker 2: 50:16

I thought so Right, right, I mean sure we're going to have a little bit of anxiety, like we all would, if we're being called into the boss's office, but the level of anxiety that the anxious person gets it's immediately they did something wrong, they're not good enough, they're not worthy, and it's a rough morning especially if you're supposed to go into 11 o'clock and they can't see it until two, your day is shot. Your day is shot. Right Makes sense.

Speaker 1: 50:45

It does. So, michelle. Now people who are listening to this are probably beginning to recognize some of their own behaviors, and maybe some of the behaviors of people who are important to them in their lives. How do they go about exploring, figuring this out and starting to do the work themselves?

Speaker 2: 51:08

Well, I was hoping that you would ask that, and there is a great website. It's called the attachment project and it's online. Just type in the attachment project. It is an awesome, awesome site. It will allow you to find out, drumroll please, what your attachment style is. And drumroll please, again, for free and there's no attachments. You have to give over your life.

Speaker 2: 51:35

It's a free quiz, no strings attached, no strings attached, and it's a free quiz and it gives you so much information and it's really really a great segue into self exploration, to go deeper and understanding your childhood wounds.

Speaker 1: 51:51

Are there any books that are particularly appropriate for somebody that's just trying to explore this within them? As all Obviously, counseling can absolutely help, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 52:04

I'll plug all the Amago, carval Hendricks books how to Get the Love you Want. His books are life changing, very powerful. But I'm going to go back to this website because I really want to endorse them, because I think it's awesome what they're doing, because they understand the importance of understanding your attachment, the attachment project. Once you take your quiz and you understand what your attachment style is, they give you an option to learn. They have the books right there and they're not that expensive. So I mean, I could tell you a lot of attachment books, but I really want to encourage people to go to this site and take the free quiz and tons of information right there. Once they tell you what your attachment style is, and then they have workbooks. They have books right there to help you like overcome it. What you can do, it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: 52:55

When you really embrace this and start to understand your childhood wounds, your tendencies and attachment style, how does that transform your life? You talked about it being transformative for you in understanding the Amago.

Speaker 2: 53:12

Oh, yes, yes, you know. We are our own worst nightmare. I'm sure you've heard it. We are our own worst nightmare. We are the ones that talk negatively so much about ourselves. We are the ones that create the anxiety. We are the ones and it comes from the subconscious. We make sense, but once you understand, you can change things. 21 days. 21 days can make or break a habit. You know what we know about neuroscience today. We're creatures of habit. Once you keep taking that negative self-talk and changing it, we can start rewiring the negativity and we can have the peaceful existence. Then the outside people won't have that much hour over us to make us feel bad because it's really not them making us feel bad.

Speaker 1: 54:01

We want that Right.

Speaker 2: 54:03

And it's really not them making us feel bad, it's our own stuff, it's our. I mean, I could give plenty of examples what I do with my clients in my office. That's fascinating where our mind can take us. And if you have one second I'll just quickly tell you. I tell them, okay, for the next minute, think of the worst time in your life and I'll say for me it's when I held my dad's hand and he was dying and I'm like I'm in the palliative care floor in Elgin, pennsylvania.

Speaker 2: 54:29

I can hear the beeping, I can hear him death rattling and I can feel that and I can work myself into a bad state, but where am I at? I'm in Atlanta, I'm not in Pennsylvania, but that's the mind taking us there. Then I'll tell them think it next minute about the best time in your life and I can think about being in the OR and rest in Virginia, having my first child, and I can hear the beeping and nests and that, and all of a sudden, chemically, I can change my whole chemical composition. So that's the power, the power of understanding who we are, where we're coming from, what our needs are and what we're going to do to get those needs met and not wait for the others to do it for us, for the icing on the cake, but we're the cake. We have to have a good foundation.

Speaker 1: 55:16

I love that. That's probably the perfect place for us to stop, but before we go, I want to give you an opportunity to remind people how to reach out to you, where you practice here in Atlanta and where they can learn more about you.

Speaker 2: 55:28

Great. So I'm Michelle Morris. You can go to MichelleMorrisLPCcom. I practice in Sandy Springs Sandy Springs Psychotherapy Associates and I do a Mogo. I do individual. Look me up.

Speaker 1: 55:44

Awesome. Well, michelle, this has been enlightening and just a lot of fun to chat with you about it, so I really appreciate your taking the time to explore all of this stuff with us.

Speaker 2: 55:55

Well, my pleasure, and I think it's awesome that you do these podcasts to enlighten folks, because this is all we got.

Speaker 1: 56:05

As Michelle Soaplich pointed out in this episode, we can sometimes unwittingly become our own worst enemy when it comes to online dating, something like we continue to have the same experience over and over again. As the research shows, we often seek out and are drawn to the opposite attachment style as we subconsciously try to rectify the gaps that stem from our earliest childhood experiences. This dynamic invariably leads to conflict, heart feelings and often a premature demise to the relationship and, according to Michelle, there is good news. Changing the narrative begins with a simple understanding of how our attachment style influences our own behaviors and responses. Once you begin to recognize your automatic responses, you become better able to consciously choose those responses in a way that offers you self soothing and offers a path to a far healthier communication dynamic with your partner. I want to thank Michelle Morris once again for shedding light on this important topic. Remember, if you want to learn more about your attachment style, please visit attachmentprojectcom and take the free quiz.

Speaker 1: 57:25

If you're looking to dig deeper, check out Attached the new science of adult attachment and how it can help you find and keep love. By authors Amir Labin and Rachel Heller. The book has almost 20,000 ratings on Amazon, with a whopping 4.7 overall score. That's pretty rare indeed. We'll be back next week with another episode of Behind this White. Until then, swipe fearlessly.