Hoyt: 0:03

This is behind the swipe. The podcast that takes you inside the lives of real men and women over 40. Who have taken the plunge into the often murkey and sometimes exhilarating world of online dating. Each week we explore new topics through the experiences and expectations of real online daters just like you. I'm your host Hoyt Prisock. Join me as we peel back the one dimensional dating profiles. To discover the real men and women. Behind the swipe. Welcome to this week's episode of behind the swipe. Before we get started. I just wanted to thank all of our listeners who made last week show our first full episode. Such a success. Your support and enthusiasm has catapulted behind the swipe to be among the top 50%, most downloaded of all podcasts in just its first five days. All from a standing start. So a big shout out to the friends of the show who helped get the word out and to you. Our listeners. This week, we're going to explore dating at a distance. It seems these days that everyone is down on long distance dating. The vast majority of blog posts and advice, columns, echo the refrain just don't do it. It's bound to fail and it will only bring heartache to you or your partner. And while it's true that most long distance relationships do end in a breakup. It's also true that most relationships, whether distant or proximate. And in breakup. That's life. That's part of the journey. So if your goal is to protect yourself from heartache. You might as well, just pull yourself back in your shell and never risk a romantic relationship of any kind. Now I'm not advocating for long distance relationships. There are numerous challenges to dating from afar. I'm just suggesting that you consider both the positives and the negatives. It's just not black and white. Today, we'll hear the stories of two women with different perspectives and different outcomes. I'm thrilled to be joined by Betsy Morris. Betsy is the founder and managing editor of Good, better Next, the online community for women over 40 who are reclaiming their independence after divorce or breakup. Betsy, thanks for coming by.

Betsy: 2:42

Thank you so much for having me, Hoyt. It really is a pleasure to be here with you.

Hoyt: 2:46

Well, I am so thrilled to have you on particularly for this topic. But before we get going with that, tell us a little bit about Good, better Next, what it is and who it's for.

Betsy: 2:57

Good Better. Next is an online community for women who are building their lives back after a divorce or the end of a long-term relationship. We want to build a community in which we can talk. Talk about the challenges that we face. Rebuilding our self-esteem, rebuilding trust after infidelity affects a marriage. We wanna talk about career and that going back into the workforce or becoming the sole breadwinner for you and your children. Are community is open to anyone. That is over 40, that is wanting to put their life back together. And we wanna have the conversations that affect your life,

Hoyt: 3:44

Well, you're doing great work there And I know that there are a number of people that really appreciate that and it's just much needed today. Thank you for that work and thank you again for being here. So let's dig into this topic today. Long distance relationships. People have spoken poorly about the prospects for long distance relationships, for a number of reasons that we'll get into. But the secondary reason why I was so excited to have you here is because you actually find yourself in a long distance relationship at the moment, and you consider it pretty successful.

Betsy: 4:28

That is true. In preparation for today, I was astounded to see the negativity about long distance relationships because this one has been such a blessing to my life. I've grown so much from being in a relationship with this man, and we actually have had a whole lot of fun in. Creating communication or finding ways to spend time together even though we live four hours apart.

Hoyt: 5:02

So it sounds like one of the keys for you, and I mean, I know you personally, you're a really great friend, and so I know that you are very intentionally communicative about what's important to you. And you're very attuned to the feelings and emotions of, of other people. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that you've. Tackled this challenger opportunity with the, kind of thoughtfulness that, that you, that you have. Today we're gonna hear from Carrie. Carrie is a woman in her early fifties. She lives in a major metropolitan area. She's been divorced for a few years now. But this particular story is about a relationship that held a lot of promise and was viewed by her as being very positive in, in many ways that ultimately didn't, make it. And so I thought that this conversation that I had with Carrie was wide ranging enough and interesting enough that we're really gonna focus on her story today. And we'll take some pauses in here so you and I can talk about what those experiences are and your perspective on what she's doing right, what she didn't do right, and what kind of lessons. Might be drawn from her perspective on long distance relationships.

Betsy: 6:41

That sounds great. Hoy. I can't wait to hear her story.

Hoyt: 6:44

I'm asking her a little bit about, her life and her experience, and so let's listen to what Carrie had to say. So that's Carrie's story. How common do you think stories like that are? I mean, she sounds a little bit to me like you know, sort of a modern day Mary Tyler Moore, except without credentials.

Betsy: 9:34

That actually is a pretty interesting comparison. I hadn't thought about that. what jumped out at me is that I think when you're coming out of a long-term marriage or. Long-term relationship. There absolutely is a period in which you are getting to know yourself again. And it sounds like she had everything was new, so that actually is a pretty big job to tackle everything all at once. And it also sounded like she was giving time to figuring out what she wanted. You know, I have a little taste of this and I'll have a little taste of that, and she said after that she backed out after a couple of dates, which isn't a bad idea because even though our culture says dating is for marriage, We get to decide what we are looking for when we are dating, and I think that's a really important point to make, whether that's a long distance relationship or a more convenient one.

Hoyt: 10:51

So this is one of the themes, Betsy, that you come back to often at Good, better next, is really doing the work on yourself, right? And giving yourself the time to do that. So if you sort of help me with how you approach this, because you've been divorced now for how many years?

Betsy: 11:12

I think we're running on eight.

Hoyt: 11:14

And you really only started dating seriously a few years ago, is that right?

Betsy: 11:21

That is true. I think I took about a year without any dating. I, and then, Kind of just noticed that men crossed my path with whom I felt some type of connection and felt like I could give myself permission to explore that. Be curious. And so a friend sat down with me and helped me write my profile and select pictures, and gave me a little confidence boost that I could have fun doing this. Seeing who was in the pond was very interesting. And one of my decisions was to expand my borders to the state of Texas because that's where I live. And it is because I had broad borders that I met the man that I've been dating for about a year and a half now. So. I'm really not quite sure how that worked out, that he showed up in my, on my app and I saw that he lived far away. But I really liked his profile and I saw no reason not to just send a note saying, looks like you have a great attitude. And I was just kind of encouraging. Then that led to some chatting and I think it took a couple of weeks before he realized where I was. And I think by that time we were enough curious that when I had the opportunity to go visit some friends that lived about an hour away from him, I suggested that we meet. And that was a pretty special meeting. And from there, within a couple of months, neither one of us were interested in dating anybody else.

Hoyt: 13:35

you're very intentional about this and you wanted to make sure that there was a right balance, I think between your autonomy and independence. And being in relationship with this man. And so I wanna dig into that. But let's, let's switch over to Carrie again here and hear about her long distance relationship and how it came to be.

Kerrie: 14:01

So, I guess this is the quintessential long distance relationship because I met this guy at an airport. I thought he was handsome, very attractive, really interesting, and we visited on a flight, and during that time I understood that he worked in another state and that that's where his business. Was taking him and that I understood that that's where he lived. So I didn't even give him a second thought because this was not a convenient relationship, even though I did find him attractive. So your initial inclination was, Hey, this guy looks like he might have like all the ingredients for an interesting potential relationship, but that the complications of distance. Probably made that a non-starter. Is that right? You know, it's funny you say that. You people tell you, you know that absence makes the heart grow fonder, but I think that that should be taken as a warning more than as fact, because the fact was he wasn't convenient and so I was less interested. Come to find out, he was in the city where I lived also for business very regularly. So I would see him, you know, several times a month he would fly in and take me out and I ended up having a pretty significant relationship for him. One, one of my longer relationships, maybe because he was long distance.

Hoyt: 15:44

Now that's a really interesting comment Her attribution of the. Interestingness of the relationship being related to the fact that he wasn't available 24 7.

Betsy: 16:04

That definitely is interesting. I liked how she focused on that. She was drawn to him and curious. And it really sounds like she's somebody who can look back and know herself to make that statement that maybe it lasted as long as it did because it was long distance.

Hoyt: 16:27

you know, there are particularly for people who are accustomed to their independence and accustomed to their autonomy. There are many advantages to that, and I think that she's, begun to allude to some of those advantages, but she actually starts talking about the really positive aspects of that in another part of that conversation. So why don't I just, I'll, I'll just jump into that part of the conversation.

Kerrie: 16:58

We spent a whole lot of time talking on the phone. We spent a whole lot of time getting to know sort of the contents of one another's hearts and you know, what's going on in each other's heads. And I felt like before I actually spent a whole lot of time physically with him, I had spent a whole lot of time conversationally with him and I, that doesn't always happen in real time, like in, in real life when you're. Right there in front of each other. There are a whole lot of other things that can tempt you and get you distracted from really digging in pretty deep. But if the best you can do is have a phone conversation and you're interested in someone, you can have a lot of conversation leading up to when you finally do get to spend time together. My business was going great and my schedule was full of have to-dos, so it was really nice to have a fun to do to, to have something to look forward to. So in some ways, I don't know that I had time for an in-person every day relationship. I, I don't even know that I was ready for that, quite frankly. I mean, I've been single. You know, at least five years. But in some ways that bought me some time personally to kind of think about what I wanted and what I needed. I'm just that long distance relationship definitely had its pluses and minuses because it allowed me time to myself, it had me, gave me time to be intro introspective and also to develop my friendships, you know, in my town where I lived. So I was. Making girlfriends and I really needed that. At that time I was making business connections. I, I could get a lot of stuff done and I wasn't totally focused on some guy that was taking up, you know, my time. So yeah, definitely pluses and minuses on that front. I think he wanted a nice, committed. Cute girl that he could, he could swoop me off my feet on a monthly basis. I mean, that is kind of appealing. You know, you just, you just prince charming your way in every month and sweep the, the same girl off her feet over and over again. That's really a lot of fun. It's, it was fun for me and it had to be fun for him. I'm excited for him to. Show up, pick me up and it's on. That was fun.

Hoyt: 19:43

There's a lot to unpack here. As Carrie talked about the importance of having fun. Making time for the life you have outside the relationship. And about how deep conversations can bring you closer together, even while you're miles apart. Betsy, and I will be back in just a moment to share our thoughts and reactions. Behind the swipe is made possible by real online. Daters just like you. Willing to share their personal and authentic stories and perspectives as they seek love, romance and intimacy online. Head on over to behindtheswipe.com. Click the, be a guest link at the top of the page there. You'll learn about some of our upcoming episode topics and how you can help. We are back. I'm Hoyt Prisock. And with me is my guest. Co-host this week, Betsy Morris. Founder and editor at good, better. Next. Betsy. This kind of sounds like the stuff of romance novels. Doesn't it. The dashing leading man flies in every few weeks to whisky off to a Taylor swift concert. Or a weekend at the Cape. So Betsy, who wouldn't want that, right?

Betsy: 20:57

Who wouldn't want that? Coming out of a divorce, fun is critical. It is a required ingredient. And, coming out of a divorce where the marriage has not been fun. And it has been hard or it has been painful or just all of the fallout? Gosh. She, she said so many things that I could attest to. I love how she said it was a fun to do rather than a have to do because we do come out with, so many have to dos whether it was have to do for work or family. It sounds like she can look back and see that the distance provided her an opportunity to do important things in her life. The getting to know herself again recognizing that maybe she wasn't ready for a in town relationship. That would take up more time or would require drawing boundaries that can be really hard to learn to do when you're coming out of a divorce. And then the leading into the online dating kind of gave me some space in which to Figure out myself so that when I met this man, I was ready for what I call interdependence. I'm not independent and isolated and I'm not codependent. I have my own foundation and he has his own foundation. And then we have our relationship that is shared It's kinda like you can't build a bridge without a strong left side of the bridge and a strong right side of the bridge. You have to have both.

Hoyt: 23:01

Oh, that's a great analogy. I like that.

Betsy: 23:05

Wow. The time to make friends. That definitely has been one of the benefits of my long distance relationship is that it. Gives me time and space to not only prioritize my children building good, better next, deciding what, how we want to do that. Learning about all of the things that I've had to learn over the past couple of years of diving into good, better next. But it gives me time to build and spend. Intentional time with friends that have been nurturing me and holding me up throughout my marriage and its demise. And it's also true that women have to, like one of her have to-dos was making friends. And so she wouldn't wanna give that time up for a relationship. Lots of women have children and that's a big have to do and to want to do, and we only get them for so long. So I know that the long distance relationship that I'm in has given me a lot of space to enjoy. My son, my last child's last year at home. Without pressure to not be present for my son,

Hoyt: 24:40

Mm-hmm.

Betsy: 24:41

and that has been a real gift. One of the things that comes up for me is that, The creating of this relationship has not been one-sided. I absolutely have a equal partner who has been through very similar experiences has great relationships with his kids that another relationship interfered with. So he's very protective of his relationships with his kids, which I absolutely respect. He also has been very creative in, in how we connect both when we're together and when we're apart.

Hoyt: 25:29

you are very evolved on this whole topic, and it sounds like Carrie really is too, But it seems to me that in the kind of relationship that she was developing with this man, that there was a risk of. Idealization of the relationship based on the fact that almost all of the engagements and interactions were fun times So, how does somebody deal with that just internally to. Make sure that you're not looking at a relationship that's long distance through rose-colored glasses.

Betsy: 26:11

Well, I think that that really is something that all relationships have to deal with. What is the story that we're making up in our heads? where do we have to ask ourselves the questions of what are my expectations? What am I willing to give? What do I need in return? Vacation dating, I think it, I've heard it's been called, is definitely something that might affect long distance relationships more often. And if the couple can't find ways to bring each other into. The hard parts of a day of an experience. You know, on our weekends together, my partner and I sometimes run, run some errands He's been great about helping me do some chores around the house, we don't always have a fancy date night out, you know, we have dressed up dates and dress down dates. Go to the gym and work out and he does his thing and I do my thing. Trying to bring some of that more normal rhythm into. The time that we're together. Granted we've had some great vacation dates too. So, you know, finding the, balance has been really important.

Hoyt: 27:43

So I've seen some research, Betsy, that seems to indicate that relationships that are in a state of distance when they do ultimately reunite, that there's a high chance that that finally getting together is going to surface some of these. Anxieties and tensions and things like that, that tended to get glossed over

Betsy: 28:13

I think that's a really realistic challenge that long distance relationships have. you can't expect not to fight. some of the things that we practice are talking about a negative feeling that comes up. Whether that's, mistrust or jealousy. I mean, they're not feeling like a priority. I mean, there are definitely some of those things that can come up more so in a long distance relationship than in one of proximity. We don't wait to have the hard conversation. That has been more so critical for me because in my marriage, the pattern was trying to wait for the good moment to have the hard conversation. Or wait for somebody to be in a good mood or wait for somebody to this, that and the other. And so I have had to learn not to wait for when we see each other again.

Hoyt: 29:19

So let's zoom that back up to like a 30,000 foot level, because it seems like really all of these topics while in your specific circumstances and in Carrie's circumstances, Are related to a long distance relationship. Isn't this sort of fundamental for every relationship? Isn't that level of of commitment to authentic communication really essential to any kind of a relationship working?

Betsy: 29:53

Well, I would like to say yes to that, but I also know that not everybody has the same expectations of a relationship. Some people want companionship without going into. Shared journey of their inner world. My husband didn't want to know anything about what was going on under the surface of his life. And that is one of the big ways that we were really not compatible because I couldn't just have a surface relationship. But I think they are the same problems that. Every relationship will face. It just depends on how people choose to resolve that. Like sweep it under the rug or are we gonna find a way to talk about it?

Hoyt: 30:52

It's critical, I think, right? It really is because it's, it's, it's going to bite you if you. Continue to sweep things under the rug. It just is going to.

Betsy: 31:04

Well, you sweep things under the rug so the relationship doesn't grow and become all that it could be, or you in the relationship and you repeat the pattern in a different relationship. So the, the long distance part of our relationship has really given me, like Carrie said, the. Time in the space to know myself. I can't really avoid looking myself in the mirror or getting curious about what's going on when I'm feeling negative or when I start putting the wall back up between me and my, my boyfriend, and I'm like, Hey, what is that about? I have to do the self-reflection. He can't tell me what that is about. He's not living inside my head. And I would be needing to do that part of the work or self-reflection no matter what relationship I was in, even if it was, you know, with somebody that lived in my town 20 minutes away.

Hoyt: 32:09

This relationship between Carrie and her boyfriend did not ultimately work out. And so I'd like to hear her perspective because we've heard her talk about all of the positives for her. Let's hear her talk about some of the negatives.

Kerrie: 32:28

He's always traveling and maybe instead of having an out of state home base, he could have one here with me, but he let that home go at some point, maybe about three months into the relationship. And I don't know that I ever really got over that. I, I don't know if that's fair or not, but I, I was like, well, this means I would have to move if we were ever gonna live in the same town. And I wasn't. Really sure that I wanted to live in the place where he lived. I feel like I was kind of forced to make that commitment and that decision before I was really ready. I'm, I'm kind of a slow mover and all of a sudden I realized this was always gonna be a long distance relationship, or I was the one that was gonna have to make the change and I didn't wanna go where he was. Was that really at the end of the day, did that factor in because the two of you are not together anymore? And so did that factor into your thinking process around well ending the relationship? It's bigger than that because that was definitely rolling around in the back of my head the whole time. Am I entertaining the concept of a really important relationship when I know. I'm going to have to get up and move. Am I? Am I ready for that? It was really confusing because he would show up to where I lived and take me out and it was really fun. I missed him. I was glad to see him. I mean, there was a lot of electricity and he was really creative and he was a great date. Frankly, I would have this fantastic weekend or week or whatever it was, and then he'd leave and I'd. Be back in my own head going, do I know this person well enough that I wanna get up and move? And I, I couldn't get comfortable with that. Is that about when the relationship ended? What ended up happening is I would kind of decide, you know, I just don't think this is the guy, and I think that we are both gonna have to ask a lot of one another. I'm either gonna ask. Ask him to move closer to me or I'm going to have to move closer to him just so we can decide, is this worth sticking together? I mean, you can look at the stats for this kind of thing, and they're not great. A lot of relationships that start off as long distance in depth, disintegrating once they finally get together, and I wasn't ready to ask that of him, and I sure wasn't willing to volunteer that. So, In the meantime, I would have, I'd get all angsty about this and then he'd show up looking all cute and wanting to do something fun, and I'd forget all about it. Like what girl doesn't wanna be swept off her off her feet and blown off to someplace romantic and have a great weekend. I really enjoyed this person, but I mean, I know I made the right decision, but when I finally did. Spell it out. May I make it crystal clear? He was really angry and there was a whole nother side to him that I was never seeing because I was always having these vacation dates. I was always seeing him in the fun times and not in the mundane, nitty gritty, anxiety ridden moments of life. And yeah, I didn't end up liking that person. That he ended up revealing to me when I told him I was out.

Hoyt: 36:22

Wow. Huh. it feels like I. Carrie recognized that she had to save herself because she was kind of addicted to the fun parts of that and, and it's easy.

Betsy: 36:39

Absolutely understandable.

Hoyt: 36:42

But she alluded to something, right, like there was an exposure to another side of him that. She had not previously been exposed to throughout the relationship. And that's this angry, vindictive side. And, and I think if you don't have that proximity, sometimes it's easy to cover those things up.

Betsy: 37:08

I do think that that is a risk. But You can't always know people until they show you who they are. And some, some people experienced that even after marriage, where, you know, okay, the, the rings are on and now I don't have to keep the mask on. she have seen that different side in a shorter period of time if they lived in the same city? Maybe, maybe not, but I sure am glad that she listened to herself, drew the line, and didn't go back into the relationship. Cuz sometimes people just want to be in a relationship so much that they, they make misjudgments or

Hoyt: 38:03

Overlook obvious signals, right?

Betsy: 38:06

Yes. I call it you know, painting the red flag white.

Hoyt: 38:12

What was interesting about Carrie sort of in later in that in that conversation was that, You know, she had talked about you know, last week's episode was on rebound relationships, and she had talked a little bit about her rebound relationship, which had a lot of negative components to it, to be honest with you. And and this one which, which ended poorly, she repeatedly expressed gratitude for those relationships. So, Really because of what it taught her about herself. And that kind of gets to exactly what you're trying to do with good, better next.

Betsy: 38:55

Yes, because the most important person that I need to know in my lifetime is myself. It is the foundation for any of the other relationships that I have. Owning my patterns, whether that's with somebody I'm dating or with my parents, or with my children, or with my friends. That's what's gonna affect me So the fairytale little girls are sold that Cinderella's life is defined by meeting Prince charming snow white's life is defined by. Meeting whatever the handsome prince is, who saves her by kissing her and pulling the poison apple out of her mouth. I mean, my goodness. I do have a great blog about this on Good Better Next redefining Happily Ever After. But if you look at every relationship for its possibility to be the one. then your eye is on the future rather than being on the present. And the present is where your power is. So, knowing what my thoughts are, knowing what my assumptions are, what am I paying attention to? Am I hearing the negative? In some interaction or am I, does it make me curious? Those are the things that are gonna build into whatever future our relationship has, and if we focus on making our relationship as it is the best that it can be and have the hard conversations about what the future looks like, then maybe this is my quote, happily ever after. I really just don't like that phrase though.

40:50

So sadly another phrase I don't like is we're out of time, but Betsy that's all the time we have for today. Thank you so much for visiting with us today and helping us. Unpack. All of these stories that Carrie shared with us.

Hoyt: 41:05

where can people find out more about Good, better Next? I know you, are posting a new blog post on. Long distance relationships, so.

Betsy: 41:18

you can find me@goodbetternext.com. And we're on the socials is good. Better next. it's time to get back out there and really start building our good, better next community.

Hoyt: 41:32

Oh, I can't

Betsy: 41:33

I wanna thank you for having me on today and having such a great conversation. I'm really so excited about what you're doing with Behind the Swipe. I am so thankful to my friend that encouraged me to give online dating a try, and was there to support me and help me be creative and get outside of my comfort zone. That is also what good, better Next wants to help women do. Just kinda talk about online dating. What does it look like? What are the experiences? What do you do when you have a really bad experience, and how do you not turn? A really good experience. Into something that's more idealized in your head, but stay grounded so that you can see where the relationship goes.

Hoyt: 42:30

Well, Betsy, I hope you'll come back and do this again with me. I really enjoyed this.

Betsy: 42:36

Following with way,

Hoyt: 42:40

If you're enjoying behind the swipe. You can subscribe to our weekly episode feed on apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And follow us on Instagram at behind the swipe podcast. Got an over 40 dating story. We'd love to hear it. Just go to behind the swipe.com and click on the, be a guest tab. We just might feature you on one of our upcoming episodes. I'm your host, Hoyt Prisock. Until next week. Swipe fearlessly.